Featured Even the 1847 Hawaiians Aren't Safe!

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Jack D. Young, May 9, 2021.

  1. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Back when I was emailing directly a known Chinese buyer of American coins through the "Bay" he sent me images of some of the "coins" he had for sale. One group image included a low resolution image of an 1847 Hawaiian cent, and I pretty much tucked it away for future reference...

    J_China_Hawaiian.jpg
    As we continued to research the recent deceptive struck fakes we tied several bad Bay sellers together and started to scrutinize all of their offerings where this example surfaced:

    7'16 combo.jpg
    From it we marked some of the circulation marks we thought significant and useful for looking for more.

    And looking at two other connected sellers we found the following certified examples:

    ANACS-Hawaii-HC-Obv.jpg
    ICG-Hawaii-HC-Obv.jpg
    As luck would have it a blind internet search turned up this example from Hong Kong! It is significant to note the date for this one, 2010!

    20449254_1906181799640856_839042004229789198_o.jpg baldwin.jpg


    Continued searching "discovered" this example from a 2014 Stacks auction, NGC certified AU-58; we thought we may have found the genuine source coin, and it looks a lot like the Baldwin example...

    stacks'14 combo.jpg
    But of course, that was NOT the end of the saga! As of today two more examples have turned up, with the following being a much better candidate for the source. Also from a Stacks auction (2013) this one is the highest graded example documented, as NGC MS-64. I have some more digging to do to find the cert number of this one.

    obv marks.jpg
    rev marks.jpg
    The better images and sharp detail allow for a better opportunity to highlight more possible matching marks, an aid in identifying additional members of this family.

    And the last example added to the group is from a 2011 Stacks auction, this one noted as ANACS certed AU-50; I have added white circles to it as with the others to show some of the more obvious matching marks.

    ANACS'11-marks.jpg
    Finishing the analysis and planning to write the summary article soon; as in my other articles I will note that there is a genuine example here somewhere, but without a doubt a counterfeit or two as well!

    Best, Jack
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
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  3. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

  4. Milesofwho

    Milesofwho Omnivorous collector

    Here is mine. I’ll make sure to merge the photos eventually. 8D66ECE0-B68C-4241-B9B4-42FA4BF9AB05.jpeg 4234B858-9E6F-4C71-B518-D61B8611AF04.jpeg
     
    potty dollar 1878 likes this.
  5. David Betts

    David Betts Elle Mae Clampett cruising with Dad

    Can I get one? got a Hawaiian 1935 ms 65 !!!
     
    potty dollar 1878 likes this.
  6. William F

    William F Well-Known Member

    What won't they think of next...:banghead::banghead::rolleyes:
     
  7. serafino

    serafino Well-Known Member

    Excellent detective work
     
  8. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    This has a different obverse and reverse than the current suspects, but the same obverse as milesofwho. So far, not a match, but Hawaiian coins were showing up a little too frequently for the supposed rarity. upload_2021-5-10_0-8-25.jpeg
     
    Revello and Jack D. Young like this.
  9. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I have a Metcalf 4

    milesofwho appears to have a Metcalf 5.

    The current suspects are Metcalf 2

    At the risk of putting too much in Jacks thread, I will present my attribution work on the Hawaiians here with the idea that attribution is one step toward identifying the counterfeits.

    I created a simple obverse number with reverse letter designation to match Sheldon methodology for the Hawaiians.

    2CC Metcalf Obv desc Rev desc Sales Rarity
    2CC 1 1 crosslet A 18' 3 Second
    2CC 2 1 crosslet B 15 7x8 80 Sixth
    2CC 6 2 plain B 15 7x8 2 Rarest
    2CC 3 2 plain C 17' 7 Fourth
    2CC 4 2 plain D 15 8x7 5 Third
    2CC 5 2 plain E 13 18 Fifth

    Time to walk. I'll post photos when I return.

    ps All Photos are from Heritage Archives whether labeled or not. Information is from Heritage Auction Descriptions.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  10. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

  11. CaptHenway

    CaptHenway Survivor

  12. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Just an error correction (8+7=15) for Reverse D in case anyone decides to use the photos for attribution:
    D 15 Berries 8x7.jpg
     
  13. 1865King

    1865King Well-Known Member

    I noticed the same thing that Hawaiian cents were showing up more often than in the past. I had thought someone must have been hording the and is now slowly selling them.
     
  14. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Rarity is a very crude sample of coins in Heritage Auctions which are labeled with Metcalf ID. ie Quick and Dirty.

    It is not an estimate of the number of survivors after the recall and melt in 1900. It is like the pathfinder sample of water tests on Oak Island with a sample of 12.
     
  15. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I ran across the source for rarity survey.
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/coins-of-h...6-2646.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
     
  16. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Supporter! Supporter

    Jack, I bet you see fake coins in your nightmares. LOL They seem to find you no matter where you are.
     
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  17. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

  18. Tin_Man_0

    Tin_Man_0 Active Member

    The two that were certified, was the certification authentic or was that forged too?

    There's so many of them, the fake is probably being used to authenticate others somewhere.
     
  19. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    All genuine holders including NGC.
     
  20. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I'm doing a survey of Heritage Archives. So far I'm through 21 of 643. So far, all Medcalf 2s(15) and 6s(6). Only 4 raw coins.
     
  21. Tin_Man_0

    Tin_Man_0 Active Member

    Yeah, then i think if you had access to whatever resources all those coin grading services use you'd find a fake one in the list of samples and those very same die markes you're using to prove their forgeries are being used to validate authenticity. The farther out in time and place in the smaller parts of the planet, the less likely there's an expert or documents or much in reference at all and the higher the chances of a fake coin making into the books before getting caught, and the longer it stays in there the more coins authenticate against it, the harder the pill to swallow to try and turn around and invalidate all those coins..... That's my guess anyway...
     
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