Euboia Histiaia fakes???

Yesterday I won two coins at auction from Agora and posted them on the 'Quarterly Progress' thread---one was the coin referenced above and I will post a sellers photo of it...and I will try to attach a link to a site about these 'fakes' from MR Barry Murphy, which TIF provided. If I can't get the link up just google Barry Murphy, Numismatists and that one listing will be his expressing expressing thanks for the web-site that he used.

http://search.myway.com/search/redi.../jAuIPKxWl3/zKfKVGvEm//O3oPy2NOU&ord=1&ct=AR&

I immediately contacted Agora by e-mail and will follow-up with a phone call today with Matt about the 'issue'. I also accessed acsearch to see what a truly genuine tetrobol looked like in comparison. It seems that all the 'red-flags' that Murphy mentions are on at least three or four of the coins listed as sold---including from CNG; primarily, that includes: the upwards hair, the large pellets making up the flowers and a poorly executed reverse with 'incorrect' lettering locations.

I think this can be a very instructive thread and I welcome all posts expressing opinions, insights, experiences and any other related subject matter. I will post an additional segment (or perhaps one or two more) as this 'situation' resolves itself.

Presently, in the absence of a letter of Certification from Murphy, I will be arranging a debit/PayPal payment reversal with Agora. Please share your thoughts.

 

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I studied Barry's page on these a few months ago, which was very instructive. I think you did the right thing by refusing to accept the coin. If there's any doubt, there's no doubt.

If it's any consolation, I was duped by these fakes as well and had to do some back-pedaling myself.

 

Doug thought mine was a fake too. I contacted Barry at the time and he said mine was fine.

Ancestor to jimmy durante?


Histiaia, Euboia
340 - 330 B.C.
Silver Tetrobol
O: Head of nymph Histiaia right wearing an earring, hair bound in sakkos (sphendone) wreathed with vine
R: Nymph seated upon a stern of galley holding a mast with cross-piece (trophy stand), grapes on vine to left; wing on prow; IΣTIAI-EΩN
14mm
2.4g
BMC Central Greece p.127, 24-25; Sear 2495

Slightly overstruck. Die break on nose.

 

If that's a nymph, I'm going to have to turn off the bedroom light.

 

I browsed all of CNG's archives and saw no tetrobols matching all of the diagnostics listed by Murphy. There were a few with "upright" hair but they lacked other features of the Bulgarian fakes.

 

Sorry to here this Mikey, i was trying to log on agora auction and couldn't remember my password. never did get in after trying all morning. the thing that is interesting, i was going to bid on that very coin and a few more, kind of glad i didn't get in.
Hope it all works out for you.

 

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and posts..

I just got off the phone with Matt and they will get back to me within 48 hours ...they want to research the issue and let me know what they discover---but, they offered a refund or a credit once a 'fake' determination is made---and that seems almost a definite conclusion from what I know now.

I wonder how many other undiscovered fakes I or anyone else has in their collections??? It worries me more than a little bit now. I'm told even Museums have a large percentage of fakes and forgeries that may amount to as high as double digits as a percentage of their holdings---and that is scary and absolutely astounding to me...

 

I probably have a fake or two-- definitely have several tooled coins.

 

While I have lost all interest in obtaining any more of this type, my understanding of the question would make the Agora coin fake. I do not recall Mat's coin but it does not have the large balls in the hair that I consider a sign to be questioned so I'm surprised and sorry that I pronounced it bad. I still don't like the face but that doesn't mean it is modern. I don't know how I feel about demanding refund on an auction before the fake status is confirmed (preferably by Barry Murphy) but I do know that I would not bid on one of these coins in a sale that was not being run by Barry. I have little enough interest in coin of the region that I tend just to wait for all this to be studied and known more generally in the trade among dealer of reasonable ability. I do not see us there yet. I have one which I believe to be good but I would not sell it to someone without a complete disclaimer and understanding of the problem. There are many styles of these. Which ones are ancient???

 

The Agora coin is certainly fake. I have documented dozens from these fake dies over the years.

 

ok, cook MZ...so looks like everything is going to turn out fine...glad to hear it! keep us posted.

 

Is it real or is it Memorex:
Ancientnoob & I have differing opinions on this coin. It is my coin & he thinks it is real.

 

That specific copy was probably fake but that type (with the disks and hair coming out of them) did exist. Here 3 different specimens that are not die matches

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STUNNING-AN...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GORGEOUS-...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOP-GRADE...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

Here another of that type

 

What makes you think those aren't fakes, or have I misunderstood your post? The eBay coins you linked show all of the criteria detailed by Mr. Murphy. If you look at the photo composite we've posted, you'll see numerous different dies for these fakes.

 

they are not die matches TIF
unless the faker produced all those various dies. But if one was to do so, why not create the other types of this coin, instead kept making one single type?

 

According to Murphy, yes, there were numerous dies. As to why the forgers bothered, I do not know but it is not unheard of.

See my post in this thread for further information.

 

There are numerous dies all of which have the same diagnostics. The three coins linked are fake too.

 

I know the post and the picture (on ancients.info). He basically said this "style" of the coin were all fakes from one period, which was before I started collecting ancients. I don't know whether these existed before that time (1999 apollonia ponticas hoard) but it's obvious that they weren't of the same style, just the same style of obverse, and they differed one from another.

One of his reasoning was that "All have the wing on the prow", but as we can see from his collage, there were different styles of picture near stern of the boat. Some were wings, some were fish like things.

If common = fake then there are also a lot of this type as well

 

so the above coin don't have the pellets or the "don king" hair...so these are ok stylistically...correct?