Etiquette: questioning and/or "averaging" grades?

Silence

 

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Your one-line responses are pretty much on the same level as GDJMSP's, just as vague and just as repetitive.

Learn about what? The OP asks a question...
1) Is it bad etiquette to question coin grades from TPGs or the dealer themselves?

This implies professional grading by TPG's and amateur grading by dealers. Throw into that grading by collectors and you should really factor in the way they grade their own collections, for their own enjoyment of the hobby. Not everyone is a slave to TPGs, CAC or the Sheldon Scale.

Why don't you go back to the topics where GDJMSP writes off mint coins with finishing lines as "HARSHLY CLEANED". Thanks, but no thanks, if that's something I should be grateful for, learn to shut my mouth and appreciate, because you guys have a need for a know-it-all forum mascot that makes many vague comical statements, in many threads, on many different topics.

 

Edit

 

You wish to talk intelligence and where standards?

Sorry, what?

Ok.

What happened, BRO?

 

Your manner of quoting singular lines from my differing posts is disgusting.
It was my original fault for feeding the troll.

 

No, your original fault lies in your thinking and approach, without showing enough activity in threads where GDJMSP voices his many opinions and then struggles to answer or dances around the answer to basic questions from CT members.

Try posing a full, clearly written question. How am I suppose to figure out what you mean by the quoted examples. If bringing up intelligence is important to you, maybe you can follow up with posts that are not written in a secret code.

 

I think the OP's first question is really two different questions.

It seems to me that arguing about the grade of an NGC or PCGS graded coin is pointless no matter how much you disagree. Your first decision is whether you want it and how badly. Then you may argue price but arguing grade won't get you anywhere.

It's a different story for dealer graded coins in 2x2s. Still, you first decide if you want it and how much you want it. Then you can point out objective features of the coin and argue your position of what you think it should grade. This just sets the stage because the dealer won't really care what you think. Then you begin to negotiate the price. The dealer will consider what he thinks it should grade, the price at that grade and how much he has in the coin (and how much he likes you). Maybe you will agree at some point and maybe you won't but discussing the grade of a raw coin should not be considered rude. ( unless you're a jerk about it)

 

I didn't say he was challenging the individual graders, I meant the grading practices employed by the TPGs as companies. Say what you want, IMO, Doug presents himself as an expert in just about every post that he makes. And in the process he can often be condescending and patronizing. Morgandude's perception of Doug is completely understandable. Perhaps the reason you don't see it is because you generally agree with Doug's point of view.

I hear a great many people say that they don't agree with the TPG grades these days. I often wonder if any of these people submit coins for grading. Like yourself, I too know a thing or two about numismatics and it is relatively rare when I submit a coin for grading and the coin comes back with a grade higher than my expectations.

 

BINGO, plus I haven't seen fred13 in many of our discussions with GDJMSP. Just divide fred13's CT post count by the number of years he's been a member. That should put things into perspective for the purposes of his "engaged in conversation with GDJMSP" experience.

 

I don't understand why a collector needs to submit coins to a TPG for his opinion to be valid Paul. Are you saying my opinion on them is invalid because I don't, or because someone who does is mad about the grades they receive?

Why a collector who simply wishes to collect coins needs a TPG's opinion is beyond me. To me, a slab is there to facilitate a sale.

 

Uh, no, that is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is that it is very easy to disagree with the assigned grade after you have already seen the assigned grade. When you start with a raw coin, assign your grade, then submit your coin to the TPG, I contend that most collectors who think that the TPGs routinely overgrade will be very surprised by the conservative grades their coins receive.

In no way was I saying that a collector needs to have coins slabbed to enjoy the hobby or be validated as a collector. You read waaaaaaay too much into my post I think.

 

I would presume the reasoning to be that you've altered or formed your grading standard on what the tpg's follow.

 

Posting in public forums isn't the only way to communicate with someone these days. There are other modes such as pm that work just as well

 

Must be very stimulating conversation as you nod in agreement.

 

Yes, I follow the grading standards that the TPGs utilize. I have never used the ANA grading standards.

 

I would love to be as accurate in my job as Doug believes to be in coins. My experience is the attitude is that his opinion should simply be taken as fact
even when that opinion differs from state and federal law.

I personally thought this was a forum to discuss different aspects of collecting coins and the different opinions people have. But I have to say that has not been my whole experience.

 

Simple. Stop the bias. I don't care who you are or unbiased that you think you are. Guess what if you are alive and also a human you are always biased. Some situations you are only minimally biased, such as you have nothing to gain either way the decision goes. You will always have a skewed perspective based on life experiences so it is still there. Now when you are alive, are human and have a direct financial investment in the decision I.e. What grade my coins actually are you are by simple definition highly biased. Anyone who argues this point needs to review the idea of bias.

This problem is so bad that companies make lots of money trying to solve or simply improve the situation. The tpg has a bias as the company is made up by humans and money is involved. There is simply much less bias then relying of the dealer selling his own coin.

Many people want to collect coins but simply don't have the time to invest to the point where you don't make huge mistakes costing serious money. The tpg creates some liquidity and allows for a way to minimize the loss involved in buying a coin that you didn't accurately grade. If I didn't have that stopgap measure that allows me to have something resembling a limit on how much money I would lose then I would never buy coins because that would leave me arguing grades with someone highly biased, by definition as they are alive, human and have a direct financial outcome from their grading.

If anything I said was inaccurate then I can't really see how tpg's would even exist.

 

The tpg grading scales have become the standard that are used whether you like it or not. Coins in both ngc and pcgs holders usually have completed sales in a somewhat narrow range when the coin is not somehow outstanding in some fashion like 90% of coins.

When was the last time anyone went to a show or major auction and didn't see the vast majority of a dealers case filled with mainly pcgs and ngc coins? Sure there are some here and there selling mint products and raw coins but not many. If these graders are not the industry standard then why are so many of the higher end coins for sale in pcgs and ngc holders? I honestly don't remember the last time I saw a major auction with even one seriously expensive raw coin.

Some people want to fight change kicking and screaming. This is surprisingly what I encounter in my workplace. You can argue ana vs anything you want but when I look at major auctions and coin shows all I see is that the pcgs and ngc grading is the very definition of the market. This is in my opinion the reality whether you personally agree or disagree.

 

Just a FYI follow up to your response about dealers that go to the vegas show. I can tell you that over 70% violated your "best price" etiquette when I have sold coins over the last 4 years here.

Maybe 20-30% violate your "grading questioning" etiquette. There was even a dealer here on cointalk that did something to me that they posted was rude for someone to do the exact same thing to someone else.

Personally none of that bothers me because when I go into a room to sell coins I check my ego at the door and do whatever it takes to close the deal. But I guess coin dealing is easier for an amateur then a professional coin dealer as I didn't violate the polite rules but so many of the coin dealers did. Either that or maybe just maybe the so called etiquette rules were a little off. I'm cool with either interpretation because you either get to be wrong or I guess I'm just awesome. Personally I'd think it was way more likely that you were wrong but I won't rule out me being awesome.

 

I actually strongly disagree and have tried to change my quoting as well to the one or two sentence quote. When you reply to the whole quote it is usually buried in "click to expand" and is far more difficult to rapidly follow. But torontokoba seems to hold similar ideas like mine about how the world works so we could both easily be wrong.

Either way I think if you are upset about what is being quoted in one sentence quotes either feel free to show how the quote is out of context or be more careful with your posting. Simple.