English Hammered Coins

And to decipher the Latin on the obverse legend of the early Edwardian pennies, it reads as follows (you can see also from a few of my posted pictures of the reverse):

EDW/R/ANGL/DNS/hYB

There are several variations that appear in both number and styling of letters (i.e. Lombardic vs. Roman) but all generally get you to the above obverse legend.

EDW = Edward
R = Rex (King of)
ANGL =Anglie (England)
DNS = Dominvs (Lord of)
hYB = Hybernie (Ireland)

Or....Edward King of England Lord of Ireland.

 

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I'm enjoying this thread, please don't stop!

 

Thanks! I will try to post some more variations of the pennies of Edward I and some talking points in the next few days. I am off to NY to watch some U.S. Open tennis!

 

Here is a little visual aid I have made to show the timeline of when each mint was active during Edward I reign.

 

It's difficult being an Edward I completist, because his beautiful groats, since not many were hammered, go for vast sums.





But apparently someone would love to sell you a reproduction.

 

Yes, indeed, his minting of the first groats in England (influenced heavily by Italian moneyers) was extremely limited and are almost never seen. I am aware of one currently on the market in fair condition for £12,000 (~$18,000 USD).

This would be one of the rarest coins in all the Edwardian coins. However, more rare, only discovered in the past decade or so, would be a penny minted in Reading. Contemporary documents alluded to the existence of a mint in Reading, however, until recently, no examples had ever been found.

A metal detectorist in England uncovered one in 1999 in Essex. It was an Edward III penny though.

 

Here is another chart I cobbled together to help some of my metal detecting friends to assist in giving some rough guidance as far as class and dates minted. Also included are some of the characteristics found on the pennies of each class. This is by no means meant to be a rigid guide as there are so many variations, potential mules and exceptions that can show that the chart is not true. In order to identify the correct class of Edward I pennies one needs to consider:

1) Mint
2) Obverse legend
3) Crown type/style
4) Contration marks
5) Style of bust, hair and drapes
6) Style of the letters "A", "N", "C", "E" and "S"
7) Style of cross on obverse

Tricky isn't it?

 

And don't get me started on the complexity of ID'ing a farthing.

Some 30+ classes with a very high occurrence of mules. Yes, I am a masochist.....

 

And since I am obviously bored and have no life....thought I would attach the seminal work by the Fox family from the BNJ in the early 20th century. This is the must read beginners guide to Edward I-III coins.

Feel free to tell me to get a life at anytime!

Crud...not working on iPad. I will upload tomorrow.

 

i'm kind of lost on your chart HC...what am i looking at here? i assume the characters and symbols are items found on the coins, but what are the colored dots?

 

The colored dots on the chart represent each class of penny. Edward I pennies are broken down into 10 different classes and than those individual classes have their own sub classes and even sub sub classes. The chart shows the approximate date each class was minted. And the letters and symbols above show (very generally speaking) I'm what class those symbols/style of letters appear.

Take the letter "E" for example. If you have a penny that shows the "E" in an open form (not closed off on the right hand side of the letter), than you know you have a coin from class 1 through 5 minted between 1279 and 1291. So it can give you a place to start when to correctly identify the class. Combine this with the other areas in which to focus (as I outlined above) and you can really start to narrow down the class of coin.

 

ok thank you!

so with my coin..



i have the "e" that was post 1291, but a cross that is pre 1297, so my coin was minted between 1292 and 1296...did i do that correctly?

 

Here is one of the finer examples of an early classes of Edwards pennies. Class 1a are very rare and I have yet to get a hold of one, but this was struck just after they changed the style of the "N" on the obverse from Lombardic to Roman.

 

Almost. My representation of the cross may not be clear enough on my chart, so that cross style occurred between 1279-1297. The chart will only get you maybe 1/3 of the way there, but unless you are an avid collector of these pennies, you may not care to carry on much past that.

Notice the style of the "S" on your coin. That style occurred most commonly in classes 1-3 and 6-8. So there we can rule out a few classes.

As I mentioned above, another factor to consider is the crown. In the case of your coin notice the "fluers" on each side of the crown. The one you can really see with any detail is the left fleur. Notice it has only two parts on top of the fleur and not 3. This is called a "bi-foliate" fleur. Only in the earlier classes of the pennies are bi-foliate fleury found, until class 10 (starting in 1301) did they reappear. The rest of the time the crowns are tri-foliate.

Knowing that, we can firmly know it's from the class group 1-3 and not the 6-8 mentioned above. So call it 1279-1281. I happen to think is a class 2 coin, but unless you really study these pennies, you may not care to go much past that.

I hope that made sense and that you found it useful.

One note on your coin, the "R" is of an unusual form with the tail of the R having a strike through it. I want to look into that further for you as I am intrigued. Unless it's some sort of flan imperfection, which I doubt, it's very unusual.

 

thanks HC, yes that made sense. i could follow along with you...but couldn't have done that on my own.

 

Glad you found it of some use. If you ever have questions about these coins, please feel free to reach out to me.

Most importantly, great coin!

 

Attached below you can find a copy of the seminal paper written by the Fox's and published in the British Numismatic Journal. For anyone who is interested in collecting Edward I pennies and want a good starting point, this is considered required reading. I have numerous papers covering a wide range of subjects relating to the early Edwardian pennies, so if anyone would like more papers, let me know!

P.S. Obviously, the only papers I can provide are from publicly available sources so as to not violate any copyright restrictions/protections.

Happy reading!

 

Here are a few Edward I pennies I just bought. Nothing particularly rare about either one, but filling in gaps on the different classes I need and the Canterbury coin had a extremely fine strike and clear portrait. As with other coins, the portrait on early Edwardian pennies are the first to be worn/damaged.

Another common occurrence in Edward I and II pennies is the appearance of the "negative" on the obverse of the cross from the reverse. Look at the second coin from this post. You will see what I am referring to.

This occurs when the flan (the blank silver disk) is too thin. And because the reverse die is always the half placed in the workbench facing up while the obverse die is held by hand and struck while facing down, the brief liquification of the silver flows downward to fill the gap in the reverse for the long cross.

And because there is not enough silver to produce the raised long cross and the raised portions of the obverse, gravity wins and this ghost appears on the front.


Now below is an example of a flan that is too thin and thus the ghost of the long cross from the reverse appears on the obverse.

 

Nice coins HC. You're making it harder for me to not want some of these. They're actually very "pretty", if I can use that word.

 

I am trying to get you over to the dark side! And you can say, as in your new thread u posted, "purdy."

I will make you a deal, I will teach you all about hammered Eddies, and you tutor me in negotiating in Polish!