electrolytic deoxidation examples

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by bruthajoe, Dec 10, 2019.

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  1. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    On those bright shiny moderns, there was no appreciable patina or surface toning. Hence the electrolysis had nothing to remove - and thus the luster was unaffected. His experiment shows nothing.
     
    physics-fan3.14, Dec 15, 2019
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  3. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    I'm still uncertain about this. The flow lines are, as you say, microscopic -- but non-terminal toning involves layers of submicroscopic thickness, on the order of a wavelength of visible light, right? So it seems to me that it would take several iterations of toning and dipping/electrolyzing to wipe out those significantly-deeper flow lines...?
     
    -jeffB, Dec 15, 2019
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  4. bruthajoe

    bruthajoe Still Recovering

    I'm not refuting anything. I'm just stating what I'm doing here, it's pretty simple. The guy wanted to know if it effects cartwheel. I guess it might, but I can't see any difference.
     
    bruthajoe, Dec 15, 2019
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  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Some clarification is needed here I think.

    I suspect that what Charles actually means is to - never ever harshly clean your coins. It is a common practice for a great many people to use the word clean, cleaned, cleaning when what they are really talking about is harsh cleaning. Short and sweet they are using a contraction of the correct terminology.

    Not exactly. Literally tens of millions of coins have been dipped, fully 80% or more of all older coins. And as everyone knows dipping removes toning/tarnish by removing the top layer of metal. However, as long as coin is dipped correctly the luster is not destroyed - far from it in fact. Millions and millions of dipped coins have gorgeous booming luster ! Even coins that were toned fully black have been successfully dipped to reveal booming luster underneath.

    That said, there are times when the toning has progressed to the point that it has already destroyed the luster. And when those coins are dipped a flat, lifeless surface is what remains. And, there are also times when the dipping is done incorrectly and the luster is destroyed.

    The truly important point is that the proper, correct cleaning of coins is not only a good thing, it is quite often a necessary thing - in order to protect the coin from certain destruction ! There are countless examples of this. And it is only from experimentation, coupled with proper instruction, that one can learn how to do this. As well as, when to do it, and when not to do it.

    It can be correctly said that learning how is the easy part. But learning when, and when not to - that is the hard part.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 16, 2019
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  6. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Electrolysis doesn't actually remove the oxidation, it removes a surface layer of the metal and that takes the oxidation products along with it. And yes if done briefly the cartwheel luster can remain, but the longer the current is applied the more the luster will diminish until it is gone, just like with over dipping. And eventually you will find you have a nice metal plating on your graphite. The metal coming from the surface of the coin.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
    Conder101, Dec 16, 2019
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  7. TheFinn

    TheFinn Well-Known Member

    Oh that that were true. Too many collectors like shiny silver coins, and dealers are willing to give their customers what they want.

    Cash flow trumps historic tarnish.
     
    TheFinn, Dec 17, 2019
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  8. bruthajoe

    bruthajoe Still Recovering

    Exactly
     
    bruthajoe, Dec 19, 2019
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  9. Colonialjohn

    Colonialjohn Active Member

    THis is why I never push my copper cleaning product ... since the removal of Freon TF from the original Coin Care awhile ago we have currently CRAP on the market which indirectly leads to the current generation of collectors indicating there is no way to clean coins. Heard a rumor lately a common process used by TPG's in the restoration process is hydrogen peroxide probably in a Distilled Water Mix via an ultrasonic bath. Seems reasonable? In terms of my cleaner I was fortunate to work in a governemnt contract business that was forced to find eventually a subtitute for Freon TF which eventually was also BANNED from using this magic ingredient around 4-5 years ago based on a USEPA directive. The rest is history ... <VVBG>.
    P.S. Not sure what you mean flow lines are microscopic? Theu are quite visible under a stereo microscope in the 20-40X range - ALWAYS. Buy one!

    John Lorenzo
    Numismatist
    United States
     
    Colonialjohn, Dec 21, 2019
    #68 + Quote Reply
  10. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Now, that's a fascinating notion. Peroxide for fine-grained fizz around surface contaminants, with ultrasound to agitate them away. Hmm.
     
    -jeffB, Dec 21, 2019
    #69 + Quote Reply
  11. bruthajoe

    bruthajoe Still Recovering

    Can you clear this up... Freon tf to dry clean coins? similar to freon 113 to clean clothing. Vapor degreasing with a solvent ???
     
    bruthajoe, Dec 21, 2019
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  12. bruthajoe

    bruthajoe Still Recovering

    Peroxide might only remove organic contamination. Maybe more with ultrasound. ??
     
    bruthajoe, Dec 21, 2019
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  13. bruthajoe

    bruthajoe Still Recovering

    I've been convinced to attempt to illustrate negative effects, if any, on cartwheel/luster due to this electrolytic deoxidation method. I chose a simple modern penny with moderate oxidation and for potential "hidden luster". The penny was subject to 4 treatments(represented by images 2-4 with luster becoming more apparent with each treatment followed by two close-ups, images 6&7. The first image being untreated baseline and the last image with poles reversed showing obvious destruction) all at approximately 30 second intervals while measuring the voltage across the positive cathode? and the solution. Voltage would initially be at 6-7 DC with a 4-5 volt drop during the processes.
    This seems contrary to the common galvanic method that the anode is positive and cathode is the negative electrode. The reaction at the anode is oxidation and that at the cathode is reduction. The positive anode would attract anions toward it, while the negative cathode attracts cations toward it. ... In any electrochemical cell (electrolytic or galvanic) the electrode at which reduction occurs is called the cathode. The positive electrode, on the other hand, will attract negative ions (anions) toward itself.Jun 16, 2019
    LibreTexts › chem › Bookshelves
    17.1: Electrolysis - Chemistry LibreTexts
    Very confusing to say the least but these are the results as tested with the method in reference with the coin being a "negative anode"?....
     

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    bruthajoe, Dec 21, 2019
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  14. Steven Hufschmidt

    Steven Hufschmidt Active Member

    Soap and water hahahahahaha
     
    Steven Hufschmidt, Jan 20, 2020
    #73 + Quote Reply
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  15. bruthajoe

    bruthajoe Still Recovering

    Soap and water does not do this... IMG_20200123_220907.jpg IMG_20200123_221357.jpg ha-ha
     
    bruthajoe, Jan 23, 2020
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