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<p>[QUOTE=&quot;Kevin Flynn, post: 2655312, member: 75567&quot;]I agree it is not a matte proof,</p><p>partially because it does not have the diagnostics, but also because it does not have the strike characteristics typical to matte proofs.</p><p><br /></p><p>When researching this subject though, I found on 1909 VDB and 1911, that some EDS business strikes that were stronger in striking (design elements, rim, and rim corner) than matte proofs.&nbsp; This was partially because on 1911, they left the die in to long, the matte surface wore down to a satin surface, and the design elements wore down a little.</p><p><br /></p><p>IMO, Third Party Grading Services normally get designations such as proof/business strike correctly, but I have found over the past 27 years of searching certified proofs in business strike holders and vice versa.&nbsp; </p><p>Perhaps sometimes its a matter of the grading service not knowing, such as with the Isabella quarter, only 8 were especially struck, but the Director also had all 40,000 coins struck on polished planchets and as high a relief as possible, making it easy to confuse them.&nbsp; I am sure over the years Linc and Buff mattes have shared the same problems with identification sometimes, luckily the matte dies were not used to strike business coins.</p><p><br /></p><p>Remember also, the graders from what I read, look at each coin with a 5x loop for 5 seconds each.&nbsp; The third grader having the deciding call.&nbsp; If you do not verify the diagnostics, it can be difficult.</p><p><br /></p><p>In the 1990s, I saw a certified 1909 VDB, which had different diagnostics than the normal 1909 VDB.&nbsp; I recorded and photographed the diagnostics of this coin and presented it in the back of my book.&nbsp; This was in case another verifying specimen was found.&nbsp; It was a nice 1909 VDB, and since my book, I have seen many 1909 VDBs that people believed were mattes, when they were not.</p><p><br /></p><p>After I wrote my Lincoln cent matte proof book, Brian found a 1909 P Matte proof, which was not listed in my book, The obverse matches Albrecht #3, the reverse is not listed in Albrecht.&nbsp; Jamie found a confirming specimen, which IMO verified its existence as a matte, besides it have the characteristics of a matte proof in both surface texture and striking.</p><p><br /></p><p>I believe that in 1909, the 1194 1909 VDB proofs that were delivered and sold on August 2nd were from 1 die pair created during 1 striking of these coins.&nbsp; There was no additional strikings with the VDB reverse.&nbsp; I know in 1916 for example, there are 3 die pairs known, but there was also 3 different strikings of these.</p><p><br /></p><p>I believe it is cool though that a coin was found that fooled the grading services, but its like everything else, we are human, we can and eventually all make mistakes.</p><p><br /></p><p>Kevin[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>

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