Ebay...Still a Cherrypickers Paradise 2017'

Perfect Example
I pulled #8 of these out of a roll 1954 S...How many of you guys have seen any that look like this...????
When they found that the coins were being printed with imperfections they changed the dies...I think the same thing happened with the little ^ after the "M" that you guys are so crazy about,when they noticed that it was on the coins they changed Dies (No One Can Make Me Think The ^ Was Put There On Purpose Noooooo) so all to Proof with the ^ are the ones that got by before the imperfections were spotted,so that means it Wild P's out there....LOL

 

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Not true. I'd buy it. Not for $40k, but I'd definitely buy it in that holder, just as it sits.

 

Just like their are many business strikes that deserve the tag “proof-like” there are
some Lincoln cents that deserve the tag”matte proof-like” for say having nearly squared off rims like the one above or also sandy matte surfaces as happens when
a retired matte proof die was used for business strikes.

 

And I think because of this mishap the price value of MPL's are still dropping that's Crazy...All Matte Proof coins have dropped in value over the past years and from the looks of it the Best money is in the Brown's the RB and RD aren't that big of a difference value wise but better to look at...I say about another 10 years will tell the Story if they will be at the Top of the Chart in $$$$$$$$$$$

 

here is an example of a lincoln cent struck from a discarded matte proof die.....

 

On the above 1915 penny if you disregard the rims you would think you are
looking at a matte proof. however rims are not broad and squared as on a
matte proof. so, this one above can be called matte proof-like.

 

Anyone else a little baffled by this?

 

Coloradobryan

Talk to me what you don't understand about it...What I'm saying is that Imperfections will make the mint replace Dies...Just read it a little slower and you will get what I'm trying to point out...Think About this Everytime the mint makes a mistake Guess who Profits from it...???? US (The Coin World) Their errors are fetching BIG MONEY so why keep making a million dollar mistake..???? I'm Just Saying

 

Jim, let me just spitball an alternate theory with no evidence. It's all the rage right now, if you read the papers. I'm still VERY troubled by the very hazy history regarding the quantity of 09 VDB MPL's struck and/or surviving. To quote 2017 Mega Red, "Proof mintage: 1,194; however, as few as 420 may have left the Mint, while the remainder were destroyed and the copper recoined without the V.D.B. initials."

Then in the fuller description below that we get this gem - "The mintage of 1,194 Matte Proofs has been suggested by Kevin Flynn. Although Mint data supports this suggestion, surviving examples, including the number seen by certification services, suggest that far fewer ever reached numismatic channels."

Or. Did. They?

I don't want to put words into Larry Pelf's mouth, but what if there WERE a chronologically earlier 09 VDB MPL die and/or die pair (without the known markers) and the Mint got better at these the later. Further suppose a LIFO inventory, so that the vast majority of the known ones are the classically known type.

Could there be a category of err, umm, ohh, "lesser proofs" of a different die?

Before you dismiss this as madness, consider that Q. David Bowers himself suggested that the remaining VDB proofs were just put into circulation. Call them QDBVDB's?

Point is - I see this "one set of dies only" meme somewhat less than 100% convincing, ESPECIALLY with this percentage of "missing" coins. The idea that 1194-420=774 of them just went POOF seems a wee bit too "convenient" for the Matte Proof Lincoln Cartel.

 

Keep in mind we're talking about the first proofs lacking a flat plane field and denticles. Is it so impossible the first ones were not as perfect as later ones?

 

I knew it would sound better coming from someone with a-lot more coin knowledge then me Thanks Mr. Bellman...And another thing the 1909 MPL that are claimed to be "NEW DIE's USED" ... Has anyone thought about they were in PCGS slabs and Labeled as Proof before all this New Talk came about...???? from my understanding one had cleaned details and was busted out the slab and the other one is still in the slab...If you ask me PCGS already knows more information about MPL's then they are telling everyone and just may have a ex-mint employee working for them in that department...????? SO WHO REALLY IS THE FIRST TO DISCOVER THE NEW DIE'S...??? PCGS of Course...LP

 

I'm not quite saying this is what I believe happened. I just feel my proposed scenario is at least plausible. It fits the facts.

I'm not fond of definitive statements surrounding events whose published theories contain so many weasel words and not much hard data.

 

By the way, if you want to know why I use the perjorative description Matte Proof Lincoln Cartel, I use language like that for all people with a vested story interest in maintaining a tough to believe convoluted story with weasel words throughout it to maintain an extreme rarity narrative in which they have a vested financial interest.

IOW, the "only the ones we have are real" convenience. I find it equally plausible that the truth is "only the ones we have are the later, better, officially distributed in tissue paper ones".

 

OK.. we see eye too eye on a couple of things,This is what I can't get,The 1909 MPL's were made with atlease 5 different Die's (front & back) and the 1909 VDB MPL's were made with one Pair...???? Just the V.D.B. initials alone would make you have to change Die's because of the size and pressure to make so why would a 1909 MPL with no VDB need #5 Dies...?????
Maybe if all this could get cleared up the MPL's just may start going up in Value because I can't see a coin with only 1,194 minted less valuable then a BS minted in the millions That's Crazy....!!!!!!

 

Where did you hear of five different dies? As far as I know there were only two pairs. Citation, please.

 

Hi Kurt,

We have one archive record which shows 1194 were delivered on August 2, 1909, with the specific quote "One Cent New Design"
There are several archive letters regarding the sale of these 1909 VDB proof sets, one on Dec 9th from the Director of the Mint stated regarding these, "that orders were filled as received and the stock was soon exhausted" They were not destroyed or released into circulation. No additional strikings were made of the 1909 VDB proofs.
The basis of a population in according to mint law is normally the number struck, delivered, and accepted from the Coiner to the Mint Superintendent. If you can imagine the demand for these, you can understand how quickly they were dispersed.
These numbers are not as I suggest, but as documented by the Mint archives, which are the records of those individuals who struck these coins.
As to the number today, you might take into account the Great Depression, where money was critical, these coins cost 8 cents for the cent and nickel proof sets and I believe over the years were spent.
Having studied these for the past 25 years, I have only seen coins from a single set of dies for the 1909 VDB. I have never seen a circulated coin with the diagnostics of the 1909 VDB proof obverse.
Many 1909 VDB EDS coins with granular surfaces have been shown to me over the past 25 years, it is one of the most asked questions. Light granular surfaces can be produced on coins with satin surfaces. I have also seen some strong edges and rims on 1909 VDBs. I have seen 1911 Lincs struck for circulation with stronger rims that those proofs. Which is another good reason that we have documented the diagnostics.

Thanks
Kevin

 

Remember that 1909 IH cents were first that year, and only in July ,1909 was the Lincoln die approved with VDB on the reverse. Somehow , as things often work in Gov.,after release as such, it was decided in August 1909 to remove the initials entirely as neither Barber nor Brenner ( who felt the design was not his artistic proposal in production), was happy. The initials on the mother hub had to be removed. The mint said it would take 14 days or more to make a new mother die with out the initials, or they could grind the initials off the produced master hubs and use those. The demand was so great by the population, and rumors the cents would be recalled, started mob responses to obtain quantities of the coins with VDB. By the middle of August, the new dies were available, although the reverses were said to be lightened so the grinding was less obvious, and the mint started minting the new BS coins madly due to the demand. This continued the rest of the year.
Since they were trying to supply the demand of BS foremost, the preparation and issuing of dies for Matte Proofs was probably extremely limited, as I would have felt that the unpopular matte proof demand had already been met with the DVB. I have the mint record book some place, but if someone else wishes to explore that, thats fine if I am wrong. The government was trying to keep the people happy.

P.S. Thanks Kevin for the info ~ Jim

 

The choice of the word "suggested" ascribed to you was not mine but the author of the 2017 Mega Red entry.

The ratio of missing 09 VDB is far higher than any other date, yet all were Great Depression affected, no?

By the normal collector psychology, I'd expect more "first issues" being preserved.

 

I agree, things like the Great Depression should affect all mattes as they stand out less than proofs, that is just a theory.
I agree, especially with the immediate demand, they should have been preserved.
Can only speculate on this.

 

Kevin -
Thank you for replying. The discussion of matte proof Lincolns often fails to fully answer a lot of questions that people have about exactly how many dies were used. When people suspect there are still unidentified die sets, then there is always hope that the next great coin is yet to be found.

I have two specific questions, if I might.

First, I have this 1915. I am not asserting that it's a proof, only that it seems similar to the coin posted by @buffnixx above. How are we certain that these are not proof, and are meant to be business strikes?


Second, I have this example of a 1912 business with plain surfaces,



which is so different from this one.



The second does not have any of the accepted proof die markers, but sure doesn't look like the other one, either. In a post many years ago on another site you mentioned that each die was used for about 1000 strikes. For 1912 there are enough coins to justify two dies. So how is it determined that there is just one set of accepted diagnostics?