Ebay Question

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by 2schnauzers2luv, May 3, 2016.

  1. 2schnauzers2luv

    2schnauzers2luv Junior Member

    I found a Morgan Dollar on ebay that I would like to bid on, but it's one of those auctions that has the "private listing-bidders' identities protected" thing going. That always makes me suspicious because I'm afraid the auction is crooked and the seller is bidding up his own coin. The coin is a GSA Dollar graded by NGC with a CAC sticker. What do you guys think? Would appreciate any help with this. Thanks.
     
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  3. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    Just look at realized prices on EBay and Heritage and decide how much you are willing to pay, and don't let yourself get sucked into bidding more. GSA dollars are commonly traded enough items that you should get a good understanding of the market value.
     
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  4. jwitten

    jwitten Well-Known Member

    I don't mind private listings at all. Bid what you would be happy to pay. If you get shilled, who cares? You are still paying what you are happy to pay.
     
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  5. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    In other words, you're intelligent and perceptive. I don't see any moral reason for Private Listings either.

    That said, as has been advised, as long as the seller passes due diligence just bid what you're willing to pay and don't worry further.
     
  6. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    Although those private listings are a bit worrisome, stick to your guns with your maximum bid. With the GSA Morgans, if you don't get this one, another one will be along quickly in most cases.
     
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  7. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    I agree with everyone in that you should set your max bid and stick to it. While it does seem unnecessary to hide bidders identities (more than eBay does already), you can't assume that the seller is doing so for nefarious reasons. There may be some bidders who prefer it and have voiced their concern to this particular seller. Or maybe the seller just thinks it's advantageous to do so in attracting higher bids (for whatever reason).

    That does not mean that there can't be funny stuff going on. Personally what I do when I see this is I reduce my normal max bid. I feel like I could be rewarding the seller who could potentially be shilling by pushing the winning price up should I finish runner up bidder. I'd just rather give my true max bids to those sellers that seem to be more transparent. I know that may seem cynical or maybe even crazy to some considering that an item is just an item and your max bid shouldn't be affected by a sellers unknown motive, but it makes me feel better in case the seller is playing games :joyful:
     
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  8. Stevearino

    Stevearino Well-Known Member

    I concerned about this two days ago. There were two bids by private bidders on an item I had bid on. When I discovered this I just quit bidding. With the bidding code (e.g. c**p) how could someone ever figure out who is bidding? And how do bidders get a private status?

    Steve
     
  9. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank


    The seller establishes the private bidder status
     
    Stevearino likes this.
  10. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Private listings don't bother me if it is something I want. Nothing they do can change my max bid and plenty of non private listings get shill bid anyway. If they shill over my max bid and give me a second chance offer I will likely pass on it because of how they did it, unless it is something I really love and would be hard to find something similar. Really though anything under my max bid I would have purchased at those prices if it was a buy it now anyway.
     
  11. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    Yup, I usually do the same. Either stop bidding or not bid as high as I would normally go in an auction where the seller isn't hiding bidders identities. I might still bid on the item at a bargain price but I won't be helping the seller drive up the price, if that's what they are doing.
     
  12. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    Everyone has their own agenda and no one can fault you for your approach. I on the otherhand really dislike sellers that shill up their listings. To the point that I would rather not buy the item from them unless I can get it super cheap - in which case they didn't achieve their goal anyway. I just won't be one to help them in achieving their goal of running up price. It's a matter of principle for me.
     
  13. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    To me there are two different types of shillers. The first group overbids everytime to find your maximum bid and bids right under it or sends a lot of second chance offers. I dislike that group but depending on what you collect sometimes you don't have a choice with who you can buy from if they have something you have been searching for forever.

    The second group just shills up to a reasonable amount so they don't end up selling things for pennies on the dollar. That group bothers me less since ebay charges fees for setting reserve prices and a lot of things will go for pennies on the dollar in actual auctions there.

    IMO there is a lot more schilling going on on ebay than most people think. It is incredibly easy to hide it and the only real ways to avoid it would be avoiding ebay or sticking to buy it now listings.
     
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  14. chascat

    chascat Well-Known Member

    If you like the coin, study all available trends and info, then bid what you,r willing to pay at a Dealer,s showcase. How can you loose?
     
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  15. Duane Charter

    Duane Charter Member

    I am not totally sure how E-Bay works but it seems to me that if the seller bids it up and wins the auction himself...he still has to pay E-Bay the seller's fee. That can't be good for the seller.
     
  16. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    You bring up excellent points. In the case of an item that you have been in search of forever, I can see myself disregarding hidden bidders or whatever else the seller may be up to. Sometimes you really need that piece and the opportunities don't come around often.

    I also agree that the seller who is throwing in a shill bid to avoid paying for a reserve is not so bad. However, they aren't being completely transparent with bidders either in that they are artificially creating interest in their item by placing a bid. With that said I don't find that to be egregious so long as their "shill reserve" bid is the first bid.

    You are correct that shill bidding is something that is happening more than most people realize. I have good reason to believe that a good amount of top sellers are shill bidding. There is no way that some of their auctions consistently sell for more than competing auctions. Even when you take into account that they are more popular and have more followers it just doesn't make sense that their products always sell so much higher.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2016
  17. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    If the price between a dealers price and online seller is the same than you have nothing to "loose". A lot of times online prices are cheaper though since those sellers usually have less overhead and you can access more of them.
     
  18. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    That's the main reason why hiding bidder identities casts suspicion. You can't see how many bids have been retracted, as well as 30 day bidding history and feedback score.

    Retracting bids is one way the seller can get out of paying Final Value Fee (FVF). Another way is by canceling the sale. What I would like to know is if eBay monitors how many sales get canceled. My guess would be eBay looks the other way based on how many sellers shill. I can't imagine these sellers are paying FVF's on all, or most, of their own items.
     
  19. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    When I contemplate Ebay's failures to control stuff like this, I don't see some monolithic corporate attitude to deliberately ignore shilling and counterfeits. What I see is a corporation - like most other corporations - slashing the #1 controllable expense (labor) to the absolute bone. I see maybe two or three people with responsibility for the whole Coins category, things like this only a subset of their responsibilities, completely overwhelmed by the workload and unable to act on issues they wish they could as much as we wish they would.

    If we spent as much time contacting our Congresscritters and FTC as we do talking about it, we could force Ebay into compliance with the Hobby Protection Act. The law already exists, and shame on us for not making it an issue.
     
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  20. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    This attitude has always surprised me.

    "I was willing to pay $600 for that coin and I did wind up having to pay that so I'm happy. Of course if I hadn't been shilled up I could have bought it for $300 but I don't mind paying that extra $300 that I shouldn't have had to pay because I still got it for no more then $600."

    Now a max bid is fine, but if honest competition would permit me to buy it for LESS than my max, I'm not happy about a seller that makes me pay my maximum anyway. That would be money that I could have used for other coins.

    Of course they had an UNPAID group that did a lot of that work for them (At least the counterfeit coin detection), and they disbanded it. I do think they are concerned about counterfeits, but more so for trademarked items. (Manufacturers of trademarked items have lawyers that sue to protect their trademarks.)
     
  21. jwitten

    jwitten Well-Known Member

    I just look at it as what what I be happy paying. If I get it for less, even better. If you go to a coin shop, you buy based on asking price. I would rather a seller NOT shill, but I don't get TOO concerned about it. And honestly, I think people think shilling happens a LOT more than it does. Private auction doesn't always mean shilling.
     
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