Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by cmbdii, Mar 19, 2005.
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To help protect the buyer.
Let me further add that when you go to a store today, or business are you required to Thank them first for taking your money and letting you spend it there? This is not a personal thing where I am going to jump off of a cliff is the seller does not thank me for giving him a profit or letting him sell something LOL, Not thanking your customer with a feedback is kind of like having the clerk set your change on the counter and looking away from you. I got on to E-Bay back in 1999 and sold a lot of extras I had, I always left feedback and made sure to let the customer know that if they were unhappy that they were welcome to contact me to resolve any problems, Bobcat46 is still my users name and anyone is welcome to look at my feedback, I have had one negative and that was because one of the slick operators whom is now no longer a registered user got upset. This all narrows down to courtesy, As a former COP I can live without it!!!
Yes, a seller who is confident in his merchandise and has nothing to be afraid of will leave positive feedback upon receiving full payment.
On the other hand, you have sellers who withold feedback in order to reduce their chances of receiving a negative. It's easy enough to figure out which way a seller handles his feedback, and therefor just as easy to use this knowledge in determining which eBay sellers to deal with.
Don't know if I mentioned it, but it is my policy to always e-mail my sellers when I receive my purchases in order to thank them and let them know that the item arrived and all is well. It's not my policy to plug their business by leaving a positive feedback. I will, however, return any courtesy that is extended to me. In other words, if the seller leaves feedback according to eBay guidelines, I will gladly do the same. If the seller witholds feedback in order to extort a positive, I simply add him/her to my "Blocked Seller" list.
You are implying that a seller waiting until the transaction is completed to leave feedback is equal to an Ebay seller refusing to ship the item until good feedback is left. That really is an absurd example.
I take time to check the feedback of folks I deal with and I see a lot of sellers with excellent feedback except for the occasional negative from a wacko that wasn't happy with the item and didn't give the seller a chance to make it right before zapping them with negative feedback. I really feel it is the obligation of the buyer to allow this before leaving bad feedback.
You can bet these sellers wised up pretty quick before leaving any more positive feedback just because the buyer paid. The buyer really has more of an obligation to the seller than just paying on time and when these obligations are not met, they might deserve bad feedback, too.
To use the WalMart example, if someone buys something from WalMart and they aren't happy, should they immediately picket the store and place ads in the newspaper forever with negative feedback? Remember, negative feedback sticks with you forever. Or is the buyer obligated give WalMart the chance to make it right before going off half-cocked? Think about it. Customer service after the sale is an important part of the transaction and should be considered by the buyer before feedback is left. A buyer that does not consider that before leaving negative feedback is exhibiting a kneejerk reaction and that should be considered by the seller when they leave feedback.
Just a note, I have only left less than positive feedback twice in about 1000 transactions. My feedback is 100% positive. That represents a LOT of work. Not extortion, just a lot of hard work to make the customer happy. I'm actually proud of that.
I buy and sell about equally on Ebay. About 99% of the time, feedback is handled the way I do it. When I buy something, only rarely does a seller ever leave feedback before I do. And I always leave feedback when I receive the item or when the seller has done whatever is reasonable to make me happy. It is quite a common practice for experienced Ebayers. I'm sorry you don't like it, but that is the way it is.
(P.S. Yes, it really bugs me when folks don't leave feedback)
OK, OK, the Walmart thing was a bad example. Best analogy I could come up with late last night. I'll think of somethin' else.
I agree 100%. Buyers must make allowances for shipping and other problems and most certainly there must be communications between both parties before one party or the other posts negative feedback, something which doesn't happen anywhere near enough (I've also observed that many people are functionally illiterate and just will not send email). And you're also right regarding some wackos who can't be pleased for love nor money nor, as my sainted mother used to say, "can't make some people happy even if they was cookin' for angels.". I remember one thread somewhere some months ago regarding a seller who had excellent feedback right up to the last 20 or so auctions when it went, rightly so, into the toilet for non-delivery. After that, his reputation was ruined due to all the bad feedback. Well, it certainly didn't matter to him: he had died.
And you illustrate the point very nicely when you check feedback: feedback is really the only gauge a potential buyer or seller has to judge the integrity of a prospective party and his/her item. As the OP (bOBCAT46) stated, if feedback isn't left, especially for a new seller or buyer, then that person is at a disadvantage because s/he will have no record of previous transactions.
I can see your point if a seller has had a bad experience with a buyer who can't be pleased for any reason and certainly buyers have a further responsibility beyond just paying on time, but I think a seller's reaction to such a negative incident by withholding all future feedbacks until the buyer sends feedback is over-reaction since most buyers, as you probably have learned, are trustworthy and relatively easily satisfied if they are treated honestly with a good product delivered in a timely and safe manner. Further, if a seller runs into a bad buyer who gives him an undeserved neg feedback, there is still the seller's recourse to leave a further response to the neg feedback. Taking it out on subsequent buyers by withholding feedback is not an answer to an uncommon problem, at least for a honest dealer.
In all these transactions, we are dealing with many types of people; I'm not at all certain that we nor eBay can apply generalities wide enough to cover all personality types and all situations. For me, the best I can do is treat all customers as fairly and honestly as I can, giving them the benefit of the doubt as much as reasonably possible. Sure, sooner of later, I'm gonna run into some jerk who wants something for nothing, but I'm not gonna take it out on the next run of buyers.
Again, it isn't eBay's intent with its feedback system for a seller to withhold feedback until the buyer posts his. It is apparent that eBay considers the buyer's main responsibility fulfilled when s/he has paid in a timely fashion and that, once done, is the time for the seller to leave feedback. In fact, eBay's policies prohibit feedback extortion which is nothing more than a seller saying, "I'll leave you feedback after you leave me feedback.". This system is obviously flawed with plenty of room for abuse, so it needs to be changed.
Feedback extortion isn't my term. It's been around for quite awhile, eBay itself uses it, and I picked it up some years ago while reading a forum. And while I've been an eBayer since 1999, I haven't had a large quantity of transactions (around 200, maybe 75% in sales) since generally I sell higher ticket items ($100 and up) rather than lesser expensive stuff (with exceptions), with my sales being mostly coins and Boy Scout stuff. I certainly DO care about receiving positive feedback since I also want to get my numbers up -I'm at only 110 at the moment, all 100% positive, so a LOT of parties have failed to give me any feedback at all which likewise make me frustrated, but there isn't much I can do about it except rag on the other party which I won't do since I might want them back as a customer (and I do have a growing number of repeat buyers). I also suspect that eBayers who state that they don't care about feedback may be, in truth hypersensitive to feedback and may live in fear of negative feedback especially if they have a record of 100% positive feedbacks. I certainly know that I will feel very badly if I am given an undeserved negative feedback, so I go to great lengths to please the customer. Further, I won't buy from someone if it appears from their feedback that they apply feedback extortion.
Again, the eBay feedback system is far from perfect, definitely favors the seller who should not abuse it, and the system is overdue for some changes, but until these changes come about, we have to live with it as it is now.
Your statements about letting a few wackos spoil it for the rest of the bidders is well taken because you're right, most are very happy with good product and service, but WalMart still has security guards and cameras watching everybody because of the few bad ones.
I don't know a better way to do business.
I have been the victim of feedback extortion. My opinion is that once the seller receives payment, they should be obligated as an ebay merchant to leave truthful feedback. When the transaction is complete from the buyer's standpoint, they should then be obligated to leave truthful feedback. The problem with not leaving any feedback at all, is that it counts against your score.
I bought a coin on eBay from Coin_Carolina who lists their coins as POPS. He told me as soon as I had won the auction that he has an automated feedback program that leaves positive feedback for the buyer, once it detects that positive feedback has been left for him. When I objected to that as being disingenuous, he told me that he didn't have time to leave individual feedbacks.
He really worked me over on the transaction. He took forever to ship it, and the grade was far below advertised. When I left him negative feedback, he had plenty of time to go through Square Trade to try to get my negative feedback removed. He also not only left me negative feedback, but it was really nasty to boot. On top of that, he sent me many nasty personal emails, which eBay would do nothing about. When I responded to the Square Trade case, he withdrew his request. Needless to say, I will NEVER deal with Coin_Carolina again.
I had one guy who would not leave feedback so I checked him out and found that he has not left one feedback at all.
So I have thought about this, I will check out a the person that wins my auction if they dilligently leave feedback then I will not hesitate to leave them feedback but those who do not leave feedback will not get feedback from me.
I have to keep reminding myself feedback is voluntary so I will volunteer feedback for those who volunteer it for others.
I'm of the opinion that feedback should be posted when the transaction is complete...i.e., when both buyer and seller are happy. The transaction is NOT complete when payment arrives...period. People who EXPECT feedback just for sending payment are like employees that want a bonus just for showing up. Feedback is to judge/grade your trading partner regarding this transaction overall...not just whether they can use the U.S. mail to send a check. The transaction is only complete when the buyer has received their item and is happy.
I posted positive feedback upon receipt of payment for years...it just worked out better that way. But feedback extortion is real and it's a lot more commonplace than you think. Before I changed to my reciprocation policy, I got 2 or 3 emails weekly saying things like "the coin isn't as nice as you said. Before I post a negative I wanted to give you a chance to offer me a partial refund". The wording would change from person to person but essentially they usually said the same thing...give me money and I won't post a negative. That's beyond simply being wrong. It's just sad. Changing my policy to post feedback AFTER the transaction is completed stopped this practice almost entirely.
If I know my buyer is happy I am glad to post feedback first, but the buyer needs to let me know that they have the item, there's no problems, damage etc and THEN I consider the transaction complete.
If a customer is unhappy with any of my items I will gladly work hard to excercise some customer service, whether it's a return and complete refund or a partial refund or sending a similiar item or whatever. I enjoy doing customer service and frankly I think I'm pretty good at it. Quite often I will offer full refunds including shipping both ways, if I feel it's justified. But I won't be bullied or threatened. That was never the intention of the feedback system.
Likewise, posting a neg or even a neutral without trying to resolve the issue is an abuse of the feedback system, plain and simple. That's happened to me several times and even though I will reciprocate a negative, I still try to solve the problem. Being able to do this can often result in a mutual withdrawal of the negative feedbacks.
Ebays current feedback system is deeply flawed, there's no questions about that. But until it's changed, we have to live with it. Play the hand you're dealt, as I always say. Personally I think feedback should be changeable. It's very commonplace for a simple misunderstanding to result in a negative. If I posted a positive when I recieved a check, I should be able to change it to a negative if the check bounces after I've shipped the item, and back to a positive again once the customer has taken care of it. And a buyer should be able to change a positive to a negative after receiving a coin guaranteed to be genuine, after later finding out it's fake. If the seller honors the authenticity guarantee, the seller should be able (and willing) to change the feedback to positive again. It should go without saying that in these examples COMMUNICATION should take place and resolution attempted before changing/altering a feedback, just as you would try to communicate before posting a damaging feedback with the current system.
I hope my post is successful in sharing my position on this. It's a delicate area and I'm not trying to convince anyone that they're right or wrong...I just wanted to explain my stance on feedback and my reasoning for the way I do things. If the feedback system is ever altered to be more "fair" I'll adjust my policies accordingly.
However I still cannot abide a transaction that is over 60 days old being ignored. I will say that those that will not leave feedback also gouged me on shipping, But I paid without a complaint as I considered it my own fault for not looking close enough. My payments ALWAYS go out with in 2 days and please check my feedback if you would like to see how the good dealers and lister respond.
All I can say in closing is the fact that my honesty and word are tops on my list and I was raised that way.
In so far as nasty e-mail and such as the other gentleman received by that other person, That appears to have been brought down to a personal level and IMNSHO that would be taken up in a separate manner!! It is to bad that it had to come that far and based upon his report I will avoid that dealer, How many others will do the same??
You sir sound honorable and I would foresee no problem with dealing with you.
I will say that 2 of the three I had problems with were not coins and all dealers I have transactions with for coins have been beyond reproach!!
In my experience on Ebay, if a seller "forgot" or failed to leave feedback, I just politely asked for such feedback and received it every time. Out of over 300 transactions, this happened maybe 4 or 5 times.
Even If I had never received feedback from one or two particular sellers, it is nothing to lose sleep over. I'd worry more about getting a neutral or neg from a slimeball seller or buyer (fortunately that has not happened to me yet, but I am sure it will someday).
By the way, I always leave feedback! Even if you can't think of anything to say, it takes only 3 seconds to type "Smooth Transaction"
Congratulations Nick. Because of your automated reciprocal feedback, you just made my blocked sellers list.
I think you can only block someone from bidding, if you are a seller.
Good luck in all your ebaying
Your flippant attitude to wards this appears to not be shared by the majority,
As some say if the subject is brought up they are chastised, It has been quite awhile since I was treated in such a manner.
I started collecting in 1953 at a young age and have been through all phases of the hobby, This current Bull market will disappear and so will those that are here to rip off the new people. I will still be here too and I will continue to add to my collection and sell some too. I am a long termer and will help those that want help and TELL those that are jerks just what my opinion is. I never haggle on a persons price, If I want it I bid, If I win I sent immediate payment, I am courteous and expect the same, Actually pretty simple don't you think!! UNLESS they THINK they are slick!!
Sorry, But that is the way I feel!!
I just think if an eBay seller never left feedback, I would not worry too much about it. I would likely not do further business with them and leave it at that.
I am more concerned about a seller delivering the goods in a timely manner (or at all). I am also concerned and about getting caught up in feedback "extortion" should there be a problem with what I received. Case in point: I bougt a video game from an Ebay seller that gave me glowing feedback after I paid. He had a 250 rating, 100% positive feedback. I never got my video game. Turns out he went on a selling blitz, sold about 1000 games, took everyone's money, and got NARU'd. I would rather have my video game than the positive feedback I got right after I paid!!
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