Ebay Delemma

Now, here is an opinion that I respect:

Ben:
How do you feel about the issue?
Frank

 

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Chuckle, I've posted it on the "POLL" thread.
http://www.cointalk.org/showthread.php?t=30170

 

case closed, IMHO.

 

Cody,

I am of the opinion that you are not legally responsible to refund the buyer's money. As others have said, ebay is a "buyer beware" system, and you represented the product to the best of your ability. Also, you posted relatively clear photos of the coin in question. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, you had a clear refund policy that the buyer did not adhere to.

However, ethically, I think the issue is different. If the buyer can convince you that he did not alter the coin, and that the coin is not a proof (as judged by PCGS), then I believe you owe him a refund. Your reputation as a seller and as a business are at stake here (as well as your personal integrity if you did indeed misrepresent the product).

Additionally, and it may not be my place to comment here, perhaps you should slow down a bit with the buying and selling of coins. $250 transactions are pretty large for someone your age to get involved in, especially if they don't have adequate financial resources to handle these kind of situations. Finally, I think others' comments about debt issues are also important to consider.

Anyway, that is just my two cents. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do. Hopefully this was a learning experience.

-Nick

 

No, even an ignoramus is entitled to buy merchandise in the eyes of the law.

So what? He posted an item for sale.

That depends. If the listing says "I'm not sure, but it looks MS69 to me", there's no warranty; but if it says "MS69" but in a separate sentence says "I don't know anything about coins" there is a warranty.

Of course, I'm only expressing the opinion of an attorney with 40+ years in practice, 6 years of law school teaching experience, and 11 years of part-time small claims court judging experience, so perhaps I should be deferring to some of the real experts posting in this thread.

 

GREAT POST... :thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:

 

hontonai
Please note that my posting was not meant to be critical of you or your judgement.

I was simply asking, for my own clarification.

Just one point, tho:
I said "knowledgeable seller?"

 

My only comment is if the coin was truly a proof 65 I would have never sold it for $250.
Look up in any price guide how much a 1936 PF-65 is worth.

 

Auction stated PR-65 Merc....

Auction also stated: only LOOKS uncirculated BECAUSE of photo angle to show toning. A SOLID REASON was given as to WHY the coin did not LOOK proof.

Tough one...refund is due after buyer provides doc's from PCGS to void the 7 day refund timeframe. No docs available? Call it buyers remorse and no refund.

I'll say it's that simple

 

This is a great thread!

Everyone, particularly those new to coin collecting, should carefully read all of this. It should leave no doubt in your mind that this isn't just a nice hobby with a lot of people enjoying themselves putting sets together. It's a cut-throat business where a very large percentage of the people you buy from and sell to will overprice/underprice merchandise and even completely misrepresent coins to their benefit and your loss -- sometimes accidently and sometimes not. The fact that they cheat you won't bother them a bit, and they will sleep well after repeating to themselves that what they did was technically legal and they can't be responsible for others less knowledgeable. So don't be too quick to jump at a great looking offer unless you are very very confident of your own skill and of the integrity of the other party. It might be real, but more likely it will be a mistake or a trap. The bigger the dollar amount, the more careful you need to be.

The way I handle this is to completely avoid Ebay and limit my dealings to a select few dealers with whom I've had satisfactory experience -- but I keep an eye on them too.

 

aside from the proof/ business strike debate, I would never assign a number grade to a mint state/proof coin in a listing. I will leave that to the paid experts. There is to much value change from grade to grade on some coins.
I would leave grade opinions to the buyer so they can't come back on me after a grading submission.

 

Cloud:
Aren't you being a little tough here?
I truly do not believe that the seller in any way intended to deceive.

 

Getting better all the time!

Of course, I'm only expressing the opinion of an attorney with 40+ years in practice, 6 years of law school teaching experience, and 11 years of part-time small claims court judging experience, so perhaps I should be deferring to some of the real experts posting in this thread.
__________________
:bow:Hontonai, that was really funny. I'm enjoying this thread more and more.
I still think it's a matter of integrity to refund the money as the coin delivered was not the coin promised in the auction.

Bruce

 

if 6 weeks passes and you have had time to ponder a sale but the return policy clear states that you had 7 days for full refund, no questions asked, what is the problem? was the buyer deceived? i have no idea, i never saw the coin, nor did you, just a picture on your computer screen, the same as the buyer - yet many here felt it was not a proof strike based on that image. why did the buyer not look at the image and arrive at that decision? at what point in time will personal responsibility be restored as an understood foundation of human existence?


7 days is plenty of time to hand wring and ride the high of the purchase and the feel the low of buyers remorse. it seems to me the buyer had no idea what they were doing and then got a nasty dose of reality and started to cry about it. why is Cody responsible for the lack of knowledge of the buyer. i would be mad if i bought this coin and it turned out to be just a business strike, but that is part of the risk of buying a coin unseen.

at what point in time is Cody absolved - if the buyer had waited 2 more weeks, 2 months, 2 years? when would this guy not be able to return the coin? it appears to me that the magic number was 7 days. in the end, it is between Cody and the buyer, not us. manipulating Cody is far worse a moral and ethical problem. you have offered your words now it is time for Cody to decide, but first he should consult with his parents.

-Steve

 

I agree with everything you say - with a major caveat. The buyer must prove his case. Right now all we have is his word - no coin and no body bag.

 

If buyer can prove it is not Proof he must be refunded. Period.

At this point, it is buyers opinion untill he can provide proof. Don't forget, PCGS does not return slabs or opinion overnight. Mail to PCGS, PCGS procces time, mail back to buyer could easily eat up 1 month.

Seller stated COIN IS PROOF, period. Not only did he state it was proof, he gave a specific reason why it did not look proof.

Once it is established coin is not proof, a refund is in order. If it only buyers opinion, he had 7 days.

 

i surely hope you don't live in a glass house.

-steve