Early Die State

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Xelevatorguy, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. Xelevatorguy

    Xelevatorguy New Member

    Does anyone own an EDS example of the 1921 peace dollar? For a high relief coin there sure are a lot of “flat” looking ones. I have yet to see otherwise. Most have little eye appeal. Hopefully someone has a decently struck specimen.
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. rmpsrpms

    rmpsrpms Lincoln Maniac

    Die state and how well a coin is struck are completely different things. You can have a poorly-struck EDS coin, or a fully-struck VLDS coin.
     
  4. Xelevatorguy

    Xelevatorguy New Member

    Ok. Semantics. How about, does anyone have a 1921 peace dollar that doesn’t have a big flat spot where there should be hair detail?
     
  5. rmpsrpms

    rmpsrpms Lincoln Maniac

    Yes, but semantics and terminology are very important for understanding and proper communication.

    I don't own a 1921 Peace but I have searched for a well-struck, early die state, high grade example with good surfaces and no problems and have yet to find one. I've seen well-struck examples for sure, so I know they are available.

    Have you done an image search?
     
  6. Xelevatorguy

    Xelevatorguy New Member

    True, communication is paramount. What conditions would exist for a fresh die to not produce a well struck coin? (aside from a malfunctioning press) Otherwise why bother to replace the die unless it breaks? What is the point of the EDS, VLDS etc. classifications if not associated with detail? Certainly there must be some logic to the system.
     
  7. rmpsrpms

    rmpsrpms Lincoln Maniac

    The factor in the minting process most important to produce a well-struck coin is the striking pressure. Without sufficient striking pressure, the metal won't fill the deepest recesses of the die. This is independent of the state of the die.

    Die state is a description of how worn the die is, ie how many coins have been struck with it. For some areas of the coin, die state will make a difference to the details present. This is the case in the lowest areas of the coin, which see the most wear during minting process.

    You're asking about details present at the highest relief of the coin. In this case, die state is actually irrelevant, since there is very little wear that happens on the highest relief details of the coin, especially high relief dies which may rarely be used with enough pressure to fully bring up those details.
     
    Neal likes this.
  8. Xelevatorguy

    Xelevatorguy New Member

    I have looked at many including all PCGS images of graded examples from ms67 to ms62 on the coin facts app. Finding 0 there I thought the Coin forum here might reveal a specimen or two.
     
  9. rmpsrpms

    rmpsrpms Lincoln Maniac

    It may be that the only fully-struck examples extant are the Proofs. Have you compared Proof strikes vs the best Business Strikes? I have seen photos of Business Strikes that I thought were fully struck, similar to proofs, so I believe they do exist.
     
  10. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    Peace dollars are infamous for poor strikes, including 1921.
     
  11. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Since the 1921 Peace Dollar was only minted in December and released on January 3, 1922 with a little over 1 million produced. They were all in the high relief design which proved to be impractical for coinage that's why it was modified to the lower or shallow relief in 1922.

    Even with a shallow relief the design was impractical for making top grade specimens. I have some well struck 1921's and I could care less if they are in early die state or not. I buy the coin and nothing else.
     
  12. rmpsrpms

    rmpsrpms Lincoln Maniac

    The die state is an important aspect of the coin, right?
     
  13. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    For me with Peace Dollars, no. The design is poor and it causes weak strikes. I love the Peace Dollars. I have numerous sets. But it can be very aggravating trying to put together a set of top quality coins. Even a new Die produces weak strikes on this series.
     
  14. rmpsrpms

    rmpsrpms Lincoln Maniac

    Careful with terminology here. As I explained to the OP, die state and strength of strike are completely independent things.

    I have a few BU Peace Dollars (mostly 1922-23 but others as well) and I can certainly tell the difference between an EDS and LDS coin, and the EDS look much better to me.
     
  15. Mainebill

    Mainebill Wild Bill

    75EB3EF4-CE80-4771-A6EF-B10329E10015.jpeg A2A47053-F27A-434B-9B43-EF38798C80CF.jpeg Man they’re tough. I want a well struck original ms 64-5 with nice surfaced but haven’t seen one I like when I’m looking. I picked this up cheap cause of the strike. Unfortunately the reverse got a wipe
     
  16. rmpsrpms

    rmpsrpms Lincoln Maniac

    Has anyone documented how many dies were used to strike the ~1M 1921 Peace Dollars?
     
  17. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    I have no idea but only one wouldn't surprise me.
     
  18. Michael Scarn

    Michael Scarn Member

    Multiple dies were used. Some business strike 21s were even struck using proof dies (check VAM World - http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com/wiki/1921-P_Peace_VAM-1H - or Roger Burdette's Peace Dollar guide book for details). Those struck with the proof dies seem to have among the sharpest central details in my experience (VAM 1H I believe).
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page