I have been bothered a bit by the traditional die state nomenclature which divides the die states by variety rather than the obverse and reverse dies themselves. This is all well and good when the progression of obverse and reverse dies is continuous, but they aren't always as nice and clean as hoped. Is there any interest in forming an online work group to put together a die state sequence by the obverse and reverse dies and utilizing images from public domain? I wouldn't expect it to be an all consuming time eater, but simply a place where we could compile a more accurate and user friendly resource for die states. Perhaps just use this thread as an ongoing meeting place?
I have ZERO knowledge on these varieties and don't think I would be any help, but I think the idea is fascinating and I would love to learn from what you guys uncover.
Marshall- Are you an EAC member? I was thinking that you might get additional traction with this concept with EACers (posted on CopperNotes). That said, I think it would be a fun project. Feel free to PM me.
I have been a member of EAC on three different occasions beginning (and retaining) EAC Membership #1799 under Bobby (I started young) and Marshall. Constant moving for my work kept my mail in disarray and life caused my interest to wax and wane at times. Have they gone online now or is it still primarily a paper newsletter?
Penny-Wise is still mailed out, but is also available online. We also have a Facebook group that is active, which is the method I was recommending. I'm sure there are several of them apart of these chat groups too, however, and they may want to help out.
FYI: EAC runs a 'secret' Facebook Group called CopperNotes... it is invisible to the average Facebook user until you join EAC and are added to the group by an administrator. I'm a new member and am still learning to spell EAC... thus I won't be much help to this project... but I hope to be able to follow along to learn more and perhaps help out later...
It sounds interesting but I don't know a lot about the die states (other than what has been published in the Breen book and a few of the auction catalogs). I wouldn't mind seeing such work (kind of like what was published several years ago for Fugios several years ago in PW.) but if it's on CopperNotes I won't see it. I don't have a Facebook account and have no plans to get one.
I have to admit die states is something that I have not paid attention close attention too. It is an interesting area, though, and I shall be interested in learning what Marshall can teach us. And (edited to add), contribute if at all possible by way of examples in my collection.
For now, I think using this open forum is the best way to get the most interest and involvement. I will begin with proposing a new Die State format using Sheldon's Obverse and Reverse designations for the dies themselves followed by a period and then a numeral based Die State. This would look some thing like this: 1796 7.1 to identify the die as the 7th obverse Die at Die State 1. But we might also go with 1796 7.01 since a few dies have more than 9 die states and some software would have problems sorting anything higher than 9 properly. Since this die is used on both the NC-1 and S-92, Breen's Die State information would have to be incorporated rather than used as a basis for a system. Getting away from the Roman Numerals for Die State would help avoid confusion between the systems.
A summary of Breen shows Two Die States for NC-1 and Five for S-92. 1796 7.01 - {NC-1 (I)} Perfect Obverse Die without clash marks. 1796 7.02 - {S-92 (I)} Double clash marks before and behind the neck. 1796 7.03 - {NC-1 (II), S-92 (II)} Cracked from bases of TY into the field at right. Later this crack extends through RTY, at first faint, becoming heavy. 1796 7.04 - {S-92 (III)} Spur to right from the top of 9. At least six fold clash marks... plainest before and behind the neck. ... Cracked from the tops of BER to the rim, another faintly from the rim to the space between the lips. 1796 7.05 - {S-92 (IV)} Shattered die(s) without rim breaks. ... 7 sets of reverse clash marks from rotated reverse die. 1796 7.06 - {S-92 (V)} Shattered obverse with cracks crossing in the right and especially in the right lower field. ... ps I will post a little at a time and edit to add info and images so check back for updates.
I had intended to post the pictures with the descriptions, but I'm running into problems posting the Photos. I got a couple of the 13 I have to post for this obverse.
This is the earliest Die State Struck paired with Reverse I. I will have to be careful to not include burnished or whizzed coins which might have subtil clash marks removed post mint.
I'm experimenting with images to see how to best show die state markers. This looks like I can post an image and you can click on the image to enlarge it to see detail. If that is working for everyone else as well, then I'll try to use this. I'm not sure of the limits yet though.
This is the obverse rotated to match up with the Reverse. I'm using the rim damage to align the obverse. There is a feint double image both in front and behind the profile and I'm trying to see if the stuff going on under the chin is a clash mark or more doubling. Like other series, doubling can be cause either by the die or by mechanical means during the strike. I believe there is also a third method which causes a very light doubling, but which I cannot remember right now. But if it is a clash mark, it should line up with the reverse used at the time the clash occurred. I'm not certain of the exact location of the clash marks Breen described as "double clash marks before and behind the neck" on his die State S-92 State I and our 7.02. This particular coin is called NC-1 Die State II which should be the same as S-92 Die State II or our 7.03. I'm looking for markers to find the best example of die state 7.02 which should have the clash marks without the development of the spike on the 9 of die state 7.03. I'm hoping to determine whether the clash marks are from reverses H or I or both.
Looking at these images, it appears that the clash marks are from Reverse Die H rather than Reverse Die I. This would explain Breen's remark that there might be a perfect obverse for S-92 preceding his Die State I.
