Double Struck Frankfurt Heller, 1821

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Seattlite86, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:38 AM.

  1. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    I saw this and just couldn't let it go. I'm going to have to get off eBay for a while before the wife looks at the credit card bill and sees a bunch of paypal transactions... @micbraun
    1821 Heller doubled die.jpg 1821 Heller doubled die 2.jpg 1821 Heller doubled die 3.jpg
     
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  3. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

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  4. Bill in Burl

    Bill in Burl Collector

    I've never seen anything quite like that. Did the hub break between the 1st and 2nd strike making the working die ... or did the working die break?
     
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  5. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    I truly have no idea. I’ll send more photographs when it arrives. It seemed unique. I hope it is.
     
  6. Chris B

    Chris B Well-Known Member

    To me, it looks more like it was overstruck onto a similar coin. It looks like the R's and 1's are different between the 2 strikes.

    Whether it is that or double struck it is a cool piece. I would have bought it.
     
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  7. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Haha, I don’t know why overstruck didn’t come to mind. That’s probably the most likely of the cases. Edit: nothing on numista discussing it; I’ll have to look up Kraus if these were intentionally overstruck.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018 at 1:31 AM
  8. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter** Supporter

    Interesting and unusual! I have never seen this on Scheidemuenzen of the napoleonic era.
    The overstruck possibility makes sense - or maybe the planchet moving in the die after the 1st strike? This is occasionally seen this on early U.S coppers as well.

    I looked up my AKS and it does not mention it, (but that does not surprise me since only major varieties would tend to be listed).

    AKS Bild Frankfurt Heller - 1.jpg

    I really enjoy the small coinage of the German states from the early to mid 19th century. I have picked up some interesting and scarce pieces from Ebay over the years.
     
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  9. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Well it makes me happy to hear you’ve never seen it before. I haven’t either. A good friend of mine helped me get a great head start on German States Coins. I happen to have a great appreciation for Frankfurt, since my best friend this side of the ocean lives there and also because they do coin shows there. I’m very much looking forward to seeing it in hand and trying to understand what happened. An over strike almost made sense, but why would they over strike the same year?
     
  10. tibor

    tibor Active Member

    This is a minting error that can happen with
    any denomination. It will not be listed in any
    standard reference such as an intentional overdate
    ie.: 8 over 7 does. Your coin apparently did not
    eject after being struck the first time but did
    after the second striking while rotating slightly
    between the two strikings. It is a very nice find.
     
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  11. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter** Supporter

    I share your appreciation of Frankfurt. It is really a Love-it-or-Hate it type of town.
    I happen to love it. My ancestors lived there from the 1810's until 1944 so I have a family connection to the city.

    Do you mean the Frankfurt-Numismata Show? I go there every year if I can. This year, unfortunately, I will miss it.

    I have a small collection of the coins of Frankfurt, Hessen and Nassau. Some of which I inherited from my grandfather. The city-view coinage is very appealing.

    Frankfurt Taler Stadtansicht OBV - 1.jpg Frankfurt Taler Stadtansicht REV - 1.jpg


    Frankkfurt Doppeltaler 1841 OBV1 N - 1.jpg Frankkfurt Doppeltaler 1841 REV1 N - 1.jpg


    Frankfurt 6 Kreuzer 1853 OBV1 N - 1.jpg Frankfurt 6 Kreuzer 1853 REV1 N - 1.jpg
     
  12. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    So what I'm not understanding is why the obverse doesn't show any doubling on it. It doesn't make sense that the reverse would rotate and show some of the previous strike but the obverse look like it was struck only once. I hope that it might make more sense in hand.
     
  13. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Beautiful Doppeltaler! I love those Frankfurt city views. I hope to own one someday. I'm sorry you will not be there at the show in November; I will definitely be there, but it will be my last year going. :(
     
  14. tibor

    tibor Active Member

    @ Seattlite86 Evidence of the double strike
    on the reverse is visible on the lower left
    quadrant ( 6-9 o'clock). You might see more
    in other areas with a different picture. In this
    case the eagle is the one I am refering to.
     
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  15. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Yeah, I'm honestly not seeing it, but I bet I will in hand. Just going to have to wait a few days...
     
  16. tibor

    tibor Active Member

    As you face the eagle, look at the left
    foot. Just below the heel there is evidence
    of what looks like part of the left portion of
    the letter "C".
     
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  17. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    I C it now. Thanks!
     
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