Don't Understand - PCGS Secure Plus & CAC

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by kanga, Apr 24, 2010.

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  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    I think what is going to happen is pretty clear.

    81. Q: I have heard in the past that Regrades are cracked out by PCGS and regraded with the graders not having knowledge of the prior grade. Is this also true for Secure Plus Regrades? If I submit a coin for Secure Plus in an MS64 holder that is super high-end, borderline MS65, will the graders have the knowledge that it was in an MS64 holder, and use that information in their decision whether to call it an MS64+ or an MS65?

    DW: Your understanding of how Regrades work is correct. It works exactly the same way for Secure Plus. The graders will grade the coin whatever it is, with no knowledge of what is was previously.


    58. Q: If I submit my already PCGS-slabbed coins for Secure Plus, are my coins subject to regrading, and therefore I could see upgrades, downgrades and Plus designations?

    DW: if you submit your PCGS coin as a Regrade under any service, you are guaranteed that the grade will not go down. Under Secure Plus you could get a higher grade, a +, or the same grade you started with. I have seen coins regraded through Secure Plus that upgraded to a +; that upgraded a full point; and that upgraded a full point plus the +.


    45. Q: At what point will the scanned image of the coin be used to determine the grade by comparison with other scanned images of the same date/type/grade of coin that is already recorded into the computer's memory bank? Or will grading forever be left up to the human eye, and the laser scanning application only used for recording-information purposes.

    DW: We have no plans to replace the graders (human eye) with a machine. The huge benefit provided by Secure Plus is we will now know the grading history of any coin previously sent in. Secure Plus is not intended to provide the grade for the coin. It is to provide information to the Verifier.


    96. Q: Is it true that once a coin is in a Secure Plus holder its grade can never change?


    DW: Coins that are in Secure Plus holders are no more "locked into their grade" than coins in a regular holder.

    Every coin that is submitted to PCGS for regrading will be evaluated by our graders without them knowing if the coin was previously graded, and if so, what that grade was.

    When a coin's grade is finalized by the verifier with Secure Plus, he will be notified if the coin has been previously graded and will have digital photographs that he can use for comparison. Obviously this will help us detect if the coin has changed color or been altered in some other way. It does not mean that the coin's grade cannot change if he and the graders believe it should be. I think this will actually help us assign the proper, and best, grade to every coin.


    Like I said before - business as usual.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 26, 2010
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  3. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Well, if you don't assume that the graders have it right this time around, there is no reason to ever question the original grade now is there? But yes, the grading standard should be the deciding factor.
     
    Lehigh96, Apr 26, 2010
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  4. jello

    jello Not Expert★NormL®

    I agree! that should be it.
     
    jello, Apr 26, 2010
    #43 + Quote Reply
  5. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    i still think i can make money selling this as anti depressant but only coin collectors will buy it :D

    I only hope NGC goes first they are the worst of the lot
     
    spock1k, Apr 26, 2010
    #44 + Quote Reply
  6. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    changing standards breaking rules is one
     
    spock1k, Apr 26, 2010
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  7. coleguy

    coleguy Coin Collector

    Then that just tells me most here failed second grade math.
    Guy~
     
    coleguy, Apr 26, 2010
    #46 + Quote Reply
  8. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    Not really - depending on the 80% your OPINION could be either way on it being a "vast majority" or not. So you can argue either way - some will find it acceptable and some won't.
     
    mark_h, Apr 26, 2010
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  9. coleguy

    coleguy Coin Collector

    It's not opinion, it's math. 51% is majority. So then how high do we have to get before it's a "vast" majority....99.9999999%?
    Guy~
     
    coleguy, Apr 26, 2010
    #48 + Quote Reply
  10. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    Still easy - You can call 80% a "majority" of correctness in grading, but I would call it 20% errors and find that unacceptable. And "vast" can be 99.99% as you describe. So vast can be defined by each individual person - So now you all can define "vast". :)
     
    mark_h, Apr 26, 2010
    #49 + Quote Reply
  11. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"


    I think people know the score here and will ignore this add:secret:
     
    mpcusa, Apr 26, 2010
    #50 + Quote Reply
  12. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    I saw something somewhere that CAC had help improve prices cause people were willing to pay more for their opinion. I have seen some nice ones that were worth a premium, but I don't think some of them were worth the premium - and a few(very few) I don't think deserved the sticker. Of course all my opinion.
     
    mark_h, Apr 26, 2010
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  13. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    If you have to ask that question, then it is by definition, an opinion. BTW, I wasn't aware that they use the term vast majority in 2nd grade math classes.

    Here is an interesting link about the definition of vast majority:

    http://www.everything2.com/title/vast+majority
     
    Lehigh96, Apr 26, 2010
    #52 + Quote Reply
  14. Breakdown

    Breakdown Member

    Doug,
    You've read the transcript closer than I have -- I watched the video but didn't read the whole transcript. However, I don't see how the following quote could be "business as usual":

    When a coin's grade is finalized by the verifier with Secure Plus, he will be notified if the coin has been previously graded and will have digital photographs that he can use for comparison. Obviously this will help us detect if the coin has changed color or been altered in some other way. It does not mean that the coin's grade cannot change if he and the graders believe it should be. I think this will actually help us assign the proper, and best, grade to every coin.

    That sounds to me like the finalizer with benefit of the grading history of the coin, will decide what the "proper and best" grade is. I would interpret this to mean they could revert to the original grade if the finalizer finds it appropriate. Actually, reading the transcript portion you quote, I'm not sure either way now so you can ignore my earlier comment about something being clear!

    I fall back on my we'll have to wait and see approach.
     
    Breakdown, Apr 26, 2010
    #53 + Quote Reply
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    That is the only thing that is going to be new - the finalizer will be to see what the coin graded before. But that is only if the coin was submitted under Secure Plus once before. If it wasn't - nothing changes.

    Answer to question 81 -

    DW: Your understanding of how Regrades work is correct. It works exactly the same way for Secure Plus. The graders will grade the coin whatever it is, with no knowledge of what is was previously.

    That is exactly how it always has been. That's business as usual IMO.

    Answer to question 58 -

    DW: if you submit your PCGS coin as a Regrade under any service, you are guaranteed that the grade will not go down. Under Secure Plus you could get a higher grade, a +, or the same grade you started with. I have seen coins regraded through Secure Plus that upgraded to a +; that upgraded a full point; and that upgraded a full point plus the +.

    That is exactly how it always has been. That's business as usual IMO. I mean the guy is telling you flat out that using the new Secure Plus system that they have already upgraded coins by 1 3/4 points. Nothing has changed.

    Answer to question 96 -

    DW: Coins that are in Secure Plus holders are no more "locked into their grade" than coins in a regular holder.

    That is exactly how it always has been. That's business as usual IMO.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 27, 2010
    #54 + Quote Reply
  16. Breakdown

    Breakdown Member

    Well, if it's business as usual, then the number of crackout submissions should not go down. However, David Hall in the original announcement said they understand that the new system will cut down on the resubmissions by crackout artists. He further said even though it might cost PCGS money, such multiple crackout resubmissions were never PCGS's intention.

    Crackout artists could still submit under the old system or submit an old coin under the new system. But once a coin is in a SecurePlus holder, PCGS will know the grading history of the coin and Hall's implication is that will end the crackout artist's attempt on that coin.

    Now, Doug, I know I won't convince you but Hall certainly doesn't think it's business as usual. I don't think we'll get any admitted crackout artists to weigh in, but I don't think they'll be submitting a SecurePlus graded coin ten or twenty times under SecurePlus grading. :pencil:
     
    Breakdown, Apr 27, 2010
    #55 + Quote Reply
  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Hall's comments would be much more likely to fall under what Paul was calling marketing hype in my opinion. And for what it's worth, I bought into it too. But then I read Willis's comments.

    I'm much more inclined to believe him given Halls's history of telling the truth.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 27, 2010
    #56 + Quote Reply
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