Does this MS61 have wear?

I guess I'll have to go along with mill rat on this one. To me, that is an AU coin that has been graded as MS61 because the wear it has is minimal.

No I do not dispute that the coin could have a weak strike. A weak strike could well be the reason for the flat spots on the hair.

But, a weak strike would not account for the lack of luster on the cheek and neck, which can be plainly seen by looking at the recesses around the mouth, nose, eye and hollow of the neck. Those places still have the luster. Nor the lack of luster in the fields, like behind and below the hair bun where the luster has been rubbed off while all field areas completely around it have luster yet. The same for the area below the chin and in front of the neck.

As has been discussed many times before, TPGs seemingly rarely assign an AU grade to coin anymore unless there is excessive loss of luster in the fields. Instead they will assign a low MS grade to a coin that has wear, and wear from circulation or handling - not from being in a roll or a coin cabinet.

PCGS states this flat out in their published grading guide.

 

It's a good question Sam, but not one you're likely to get an answer to. You see, the market - and the market is us - don't like the idea of a lot of our coins being called circulated. They much prefer that they are called MS.

It allows them to look at their collection with more pride. It allows them to own MS coins that could not otherwise afford. It allows them to fool themselves into believing that they own something that it is not.

So, the TPGs will continue to do what the market wants. To use their term, what the market accepts - until the market no longer accepts it.

If and when that day comes, then we will see coins with obvious wear being graded as AU or lower. Until then, coins with minimal wear - and what is considered as being minimal has been steadily increasing over the years - will continue to be graded as MS - when they really aren't.

 

Nope, not that one green. That one is too far gone. It only has luster remaining in protected areas and a small amount on the devices. In my opinion it would at best grade AU50.

The AU coins that are typically graded as low MS are 55's & 58's. But mostly 58's.

 

Yes, but no at the same time.

It's pretty involved really and it would take a lot of writing to explain, but I have explained it all many times in the past. It is really a discussion on an entirely different subject.

Yes, the TPGs use market grading. But most people don't understand what market grading is - or how it differs from technical grading. And that's the no part - those differences.

But technical grading has not been used, pretty much by anybody in the hobby, since 1986 when the ANA adopted the market grading system and quit using technical grading. That was also the time that the TPGs came into existence - and it is not a coincidence that both happened at the same time. It was a planned event.

Today when most people think of market grading they think it means that the TPGs price coins instead of grading them. And to a degree that is true.

But what they don't understand is that the market grading system itself has changed in recent years. It has evolved if you will into something far different than it was.

The changes have been gradual for the most part. But, and this is my opinion (others disagree as to the timing), I think the most distinct changes came about in 2003-04. It is then that coins began to be over-graded much more often than ever had been. But the marketplace accepted the grades being assigned and went right along with it without so much as a whimper. Except from me, and a few others like me. And believe me, we are the minority.

And again, it is no coincidence that the coins beginning to be over-graded coincided with the temporary peak in market prices. And it continued for the next 3 years. The market took a short respite in 2004, and then continued on to new highs through 2007.

It was only in 2008 that prices began to drop back. And by 2009, collectors and dealers everywhere were crying the blues about how the TPGs were tightening up their grading standards. Claiming that coins that were routinely being graded as MS65's were suddenly being graded MS64's (assign any similar 2 numbers of your choice).

Now to me these events add credibility to my way of thinking. Others disagree and claim that the TPGs tightening grading standards had to do with the introduction of CAC into the marketplace. That to me is the coincidence - not the cause. I believe that as prices dropped - so did the grades. Just as the grades went up as prices increased.

Anyway, you're probably terribly confused by now. But as I said, it is comlicated. And there is even more to it than that. But that is the short version.