Does this 3 Cent Nickel Look Authentic?

I noticed a few rare 3CNs coming up for auction this week. One of them is an1883 advertised as being AU/UNC. This is a very nice looking coin for this extremely rare date. The area around the second 8 looks a little odd so I looked at other certified examples that had sold over the past few years. With this low mintage I assume only one die pair was used. The position of the second 8 in relation to the denticles seem a little off. I'd appreciate any feedback from those of you with more experience with this series. Is it real or possibly an altered 1873?

https://m.proxibid.com/category/resources/mobile/itemImageDetail.html#search|lot|Three cent|Three cent|relevance|40870060|2|none|40870059|0

 

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The info on the PCGS CoinFacts page would suggest that this is most likely a proof that hit circulation.
Note that on your example there is no obverse die crack at 12:00 from the tip of the wreath toward the edge, and they indicate that most MS examples do have this. Proofs do not have the die crack, and are not only much more common but about 10x-20x less expensive depending on the grade.
Still a very nice coin, and of considerably value. Doesn't seem to show signs of an altered date, but the experts should handle that question.

 

Thanks for the quick feedback. I didn't consider that this could be a proof.

 

Apologies, should have said 'more often seen', not 'more common'. Although it's hard to imagine anything from 135 yrs ago with mintage of 6000 as common, still PCGS has certified ~1800 proof examples as 60 and higher, but less than 50 business strikes.

 

Well proof coins are more likely to have been saved since whoever bought them would have done so with the intention of keeping it. Business strikes were meant for circulation so a much smaller percentage of the 4000 mintage would have been expected to have survived.

 

Surely.
One other error in that first reply - should have said 'reverse' for the die crack.

 

After more comparisons it can't be an altered 1873 since the position of the first 8 in an 1873 is higher than an 1883. The first 8 in the coin in question is in the correct position for a legit 1883. IMO, the big question is whether it's a proof or business strike.

 

I see it there on eBay with the $10 starting bid.
Note that the vast majority for sale are proofs.
Of the three that I see that claim to be business strikes, two have the die crack on the reverse. The explanation that PCGS gives is that the mint state run was likely done with the same dies after the proofs were struck, with the die crack showing up gradually. In fact the one expensive mint state example offered by David Lawrence Rare Coins has the crack just starting.
But the other diagnostics that separate proofs from MS would be needed to I.d. early pre-die crack MS's.
One caveat - this coin you are considering comes from the same Ohio town where resides an eBay vendor that recently had a red flag waved for oiling their coins. So be careful if the bidding goes higher than the proof value.

 

I'm going to look at a lot more post auction examples of both proof and business strikes. The thought crossed my mind that with such low mintage that the same dies were used for both and that the die crack probably didn't exist for earlier struck coins.

Regarding the seller, I had bought and consigned coins with them a number of years ago. As far as I recall, none of the coins I bought raised any red flags. Of course, none of the coins I purchased cost as much as this one could.

When building a nice set of raw 3CNs, options are very limited for the 1883, 1884, 1885, and 1887 business strikes. If the same dies were used for both proof and business strikes then what's the best method to separate the two?

 

Looks genuine. But I've seen a lot of impaired proofs misrepresented as business strikes. Be careful.

 

Thanks for your opinion. You are among several other CT members who's opinion I respect.

 

There is a fair amount to discuss here so I will use outline form for future reference, if desired. These are only topics for more research as I am learning as I go, too.

A. Detecting Proof from MS
1. Die Crack on Reverse
2. Edges - Square or Beveled
a. proof coins are often square
edged, mint state are not, but
not sure if this applies to 3CNs
3. Recut date. Look for faint echoes
of the numeral edges on proofs.
a. The eBay photo isn't clear but there
is something in the upper loop of
the first 8.
B. Collecting Strategies
a. similar to Seated Liberty Quarters; in
that a segment of the series is either
hard to find or very $$ in mint state.
b. (my opinion only) - often the aim for
non-specialists is to have consistency in the appearance and grade level for
the set. Practicality might dictate
that aiming for the highest grade
affordable grade mint state examples
of easier dates, and accept that the
1883, 1884, 1885 and 1887 will be
proofs. I would bet some higher grade
LS25C collectors do this. This way
you end up with an attractive set
without pulling your hair out and can
move on to something else!

I hope that this helps to move things forward a notch or two.

 

I've looked at a lot of 3CNs from other, more common, dates and the rims definitely look different on business strikes than the 1883 in question here. That makes me lean on the side of caution that it's an impaired proof. This would make the coin worth several hundred dollars instead of a thousand dollar coin.

I'm with you in that I hope to learn a lot more; especially with this series. As a side note, CBD has some very nice 3CS and 3CN coins

 

Here's a PCGS graded MS62 with similar rims. A few lower graded coins didn't have rims like this one. Is it possible that this slabbed coin is really a proof?
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/185387/1883-Nickel-Three-Cent-Piece-PCGS-MS-62

 

Nope that one has the beginning of the reverse die crack - just a short section, so it is attributed correctly. And although it's better to have the coin in hand I'd say the edges are more beveled than square, which is consistent.
What I notice on eBay, which should not be surprising, is that the distinction between proof and business is not even mentioned for many, but they're happy to call it 'super-rare with only 4000 minted' and charge the higher price. Definitely a buyer beware situation.

 

You are correct about the die crack at 12 o'clock on the reverse. I didn't notice it.

 

the coin looks good to me. Can't be an altered 1873. The date logotype on the 1873 is much more compact. The date on the 1883 is much wider.

 

Key info surfaced about the edge distinction, from Conder101 in the other 3CN thread:
"the proofs were struck slower and at higher pressure. That allowed the rims to fill completely and form the squared off edge. The higher speed lower pressure of the production striking results in less fill and the edge to rim transition being rounded over"
This would indicate that mint state examples in ~AU-50 and up should have rounded edges, but circulated proofs of the same grade should still have a better squared edge. Best thing to do is keep looking at a lot of examples of both types, with both accurate and questionable attributions.

 

Some of the other certified business strike examples for the rare dates have proof like rims so sometimes the rims can't be the only criterion.

 

I noticed this same thing on some of the unslabbed offerings that claimed to be business strikes, but figured the seller was being misleading. It's hard to imagine that the TPGs would get it wrong.
One way to approach this would be to buy only with a guarantee. That way you could either submit a raw coin to PCGS or resubmit an existing slab for confirmation. The seller would be bound to a refund if they came back as proofs.
There is another possibility. If the 'mint state == rounded edges' is not a hard and fast rule, then how can anybody, including the TPGs, be certain in the absence of other known indicators. Seems to me that the high dollar examples should only be valued at those high prices if the attribution is 'beyond dispute'.
Hopefully one of the CT veterans can offer more.