Does the redbook do beginer collectors a disservice

I'm gonna tell him . lol

 

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Who's to say what's on the label is accurate anyway?

After all, when you submit a coin, you're paying for a subjective opinion, which can vary from grader to grader, as well as TPG to TPG.

 

I always thought, if the Red Book truly was going to be the bible of US numismatics, and the one book everyone tells a new collector to buy, they should have a special section in the front of the book for new collectors. This section would cover what types of cleaning and damage a coin can have, how and why it affects values, and go over the importance of correct grade without any defects for pricing.

I know you can not protect someone from themself, but I think an explanation that a cleaned XF coin may only be worth half a real XF and a primer on how to tell could be very valuable for beginners.

 

The problem with the red book is only that beginners/novices think that those prices are representative and that the market is slow enough to react and go up that the redbook prices can be used to accurately determine what should be paid and what shouldn't be paid for a coin (i.e. if you pay more, you're ripped off, and if you paid less, you got a deal).

That's not true, and it's taken me being on this forum and reading posts about that that is finally getting me to think, everytime I look up a price in the redbook, bluebook, NNews Coin Market, or other magazines, that I have to take those with a grain of salt, and not depend on them.

But the redbook is a start for all US coin hobbiests, as it does give you the info on the coin, and to me, it give a relative scale of desirabilty (in general) of which of the series coins are key and which aren't.

 

I understand that Doug, :thumb:

Well that's 52 several times a year

I knew it was more than once a year, but not how much more than once a year, as I don't subscribe to it.

 

Pricing in the Redbook has been passe ever since online auctions and 3rd party grading has gone more mainstream. Do some of you ever remember how rare you thought your coin was until the internet became popular? Boy, I thought that 55k mintage on my 1854 half cent was pretty amazing until I saw 15 others for sale on eBay. Redbook pricing is way less relevant today than it was in 1985.

 

Yeah, and it was really apparent with baseball cards, beanie babies, premade "collectible" plates, old cookie jars, etc. The internet has been a two edged sword, showing how common a lot of "rare" stuff is, but also allowing anyone to buy items that truly are rare.

Overall, I really do feel the internet has downplayed rarity in many people's minds. I had a 1812 Carey bible I got accidentally in a lot once. Just because 3 have sold in the last couple of years does not make that a common book, but that is how people perceive rarity nowadays. They feel if they can find a history of one being sold it now must be common.

Something to think about nowadays. I believe some truly rare items are sold on the internet day in day out on the internet nowadays. I am selectively buying items that I believe will some day run out of source material and people will recognize how truly scarce they are.

There is a big, big difference between something being available on the whole internet versus at your local swap meet, but people equate the two. This is why I am saying rarity was too overplayed before the internet, with common items being thought of as rare, but after more than a decade of heavy internet commerce I believe the pendulum has shifted and too many rare tiems are thought of as common because one has sold on the internet lately.

 

I still can't believe how much people were paying for beanie babies in the 90's. But I agree completely, the internet has skewed perception when it comes to collectibles. Prices have gone high, and lots of them lower than they once were. And why do we say this? Because we used to depend on printed publications for the fair market pricing, that's what we have to compare with.
To this day, a lot of people give too much credit for the redbook, beckett baseball, and etc. Printed media in general isn't fast enough to update itself to the real life speed of the web. The fact that Redbook is an annual publication should automatically make it option Z for quoting out respective coins and currency anyways.

 

The RedBook does do beginning collectors a disservice.

1.) Many beginning US collectors start with Lincoln Wheat Cents. Most of the early dates in this series only give prices/values up to MS-63 grade. If a newbie inherited a raw 1926-S in red or red/brown MS-64 that they were thinking of selling , they may assume that it would be worth twice as much as Redbook MS-63. They would have no way of knowing that it is really worth between $2,500.00 to $15,000.00.

2.) The grading guidelines provided for the Lincoln Wheat Cent can be extremely misleading as well. Again I will use the 1926-S as the example. As I learned from some folks her at CT , this date seldom has a strong strike and a newbie would have no way of knowing that from the Redbook. A newbie would grade a typically struck 1926-S as a AU even though it is really MS-64 or higher.

3.) Friends and mentors of beginning collectors should advise them not to sell nor buy US coins until after they get a Redbook , Bluebook , Greysheet and a membership on Numismedia & Photograde.

http://www.numismedia.com/fmv/pricesms/lnccnt/prices61.shtml
http://www.pcgs.com/photograde/

 

I don't believe red prices are too high at all. In many instances, they are too low.

I use redbook to price a lot of coins in my shop. I might add 5-10% here and there for PQ pieces and reduce 5% on certain ones. The RB Professional edition is a great dealer tool.

 

Lucky wish i had one i also have to rely on PCGS price guide when nothing comes up on Ebays completed listings.

 

I'm thinking that for the Redbook to remain relevant, it needs to publish its hardcover WITH access to an online price guide that is continually updated and one that includes "in-between" grades that are not listed in the hard copy. The "in-between" grades could be included with the purchase of the hard copy, with the updated prices available for a nominal fee.

 

Online guides, like Numismedia, use prices realized from completed sales.

The true value of any coin is only what someone is willing to pay for it.

 

And realized prices might be worst.

Listen, there physically IS no way to have a price guide you can rely on in this hobby. Way too many variables within the grade and every coin is unique. Couple this with dealers serving all levels of collectors, (I am sure a vest pocket dealer can afford to sell cheaper than a BM shop, who can sell cheaper than Littleton, who can sell cheaper than HSN). Then there is the variability of bidding wars, etc. How would it be possible to take all of this information and come up with ONE price your XF is worth? Answer, its not possible. I don't care what methodology is ever used, the day a price guide comes out I can show you 98% of all sales are not selling for exactly that amount. Period. They physically cannot work, so therefor the best use of any of them is as a reference point, to get you in the ballpark on whether that is a $5 or a $500 or a $50,000 coin, and then the price will be what is mutually acceptable between two people.

Its simply messy, and no amount of hoping will ever change that.

How is that for a recap Doug?

 

There is no such thing as a reliable price guide in an auction setting. Auctions are where prices are set that the guides use, even grey sheet, which is used in retail settings only. If the prices were all but set in an auction beforehand, what would be the point of the auction? The real problem is people don't seem to understand there is a major difference between retail and auction.
Guy

 

Yes, I agree the RedBook has its limitations as a price guide for many of the reasons cited above. Peopole who use the RedBook should be aware of these, and use the book as it was intended: as a guide, not gospel.

I would still argue that it does not do an overall disservice to new collectors. There is simply too much good information in this book, all presented in a user friendly, easily readable format. Even as a price guide it can be an extremely useful tool to get you immediately into the ballpark for a price range. Most often I find RedBook prices to be a bit high, but at least with the flip of a page I can get a ballpark price in a few seconds without having to spend time doing research on line or subscribing to the GreySheet.

I'm proud to say I own 10 years of RedBooks 2003-2013.

 

He's absolutely right, no one can say the Redbook is not a reliable source, but it is a good one. Most of us have to credit this publication for launching interest for the hobby, especially for a lot of younger or newer collectors. It is still one of the most widely available resources, they're sold in bookstores, amazon, ebay and so on. It's the literal go to source for a lot of people who know little about they have or found. It's like discounting Littleton for being too price gougey, but forget they got a lot of new collectors into the hobby.