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Message:: [QUOTE="GDJMSP, post: 1448210, member: 112"]OK, but there's 2 different things here to discuss. 1 - the times when you say the coin has been cleaned. And 2 - the times when you say the coin has not been cleaned. Let's talk about #2 first. You are saying that if dirt, grime, contaminants, are removed from a coin and the metal is not disturbed and no metal is removed - then that coin was not cleaned. But if it was not cleaned, then what was it ? Do you understand what I am asking you - what was it if it wasn't cleaned ? Action was taken, things were done to the coin. What word do you use to describe or put a name to the action that was taken or to the things that were done to the coin - if not cleaned ? In other words, what does the word cleaned, or clean, or to clean, or cleaning, actually mean ? What is the definition of that word ? You can look it up in the dictionary if you want, but just about everybody knows what it means. It means to remove dirt, grime, contaminants from something. If you clean your house, what did you do to your house ? If you clean your car, what did you do to your car ? If you clean your clothes, what did you to your clothes ? You cleaned them, you removed the dirt, grime, and contaminants. But did you harm your house, car, clothes, or anything else when you cleaned it ? No you didn't. So if you clean a coin, do you harm the coin by cleaning it ? No, you don't. Now let's talk about #1. You say that if any metal is removed, or if any metal is altered, then the coin has been cleaned. OK, now let's talk about your car, your house and your clothes. You wife tells you to clean the coffee table and end tables in the living room. And then clean the car, and then clean the clothes. You say OK, go to the kitchen and get a pad of steel wool. You tale that steel wool to the fine wood tables and scrub them down. You take that steel wool to the car and rub it all over the outside of the car. Then you gather up the clothes, put them in the washer, and pour about a cup of chlorine bleach in directly on top of them. What did you do the tables, the car and the clothes ? Is your wife going to kill you for ruining everything ? Did you clean them, or did you improperly clean them ? Do you see my point ? When you clean something, you don't do any harm to it. When you harshly or improperly clean something, you do do harm to it. Sure I know what people mean when they say a coin has been cleaned. But they aren't using the right word when they say it. And the reason they aren't using the right word is because when you clean something, you do no harm to it. To clean something is to remove the dirt, grime, and contaminants. So when you clean a coin, and you do it properly, you do no harm to the coin. One more thing about #1. You said that if any metal is removed or if any metal is altered then the coin has been cleaned. What you really mean is that the coin has been harshly/improperly cleaned, but there's a small problem with that. The reason there is a problem with that is this. When you dip a coin, and do it correctly, you remove a microscopic layer of metal from the coin. But even with magnification, you can't see that a layer of metal has been removed, you cannot see that any harm was done to the coin. But yet by your definition the coin has been cleaned. Well, it is estimated that about 80% of all older coins have been dipped, at least once in their lifetime. That number is accurate. And this dipping was done for 1 of 2 basic reasons. It was done to remove heavy, excess toning from the coin because once toning reaches a certain point it can harm the coin by corroding it. Or it was done because the person owning the coin liked white coins better than he liked toned coins. But when a coin is dipped properly, no harm is done to the coin. And even with magnification it cannot be determined that the coin was ever dipped. For this reason the TPGs will slab correctly dipped coins. They have always done so, they will probably always do so. And there are millions and millions of dipped coins in regular TPG slabs. Just about every collector there is owns 1, and more often than not many, dipped coins. And they see no problems with these coins. But yet by your definition, all of those coins are problem coins because a layer of metal has removed or altered. They have been cleaned - using your definition of cleaned. But the TPGs, and the entire numismatic community, do not call or think  these coins as cleaned. They do not see these coins as problem coins. So again, do you see my point ? Your definition of cleaned does not work. It doesn't work because it is the wrong word, the wrong term. The word/term that should be used is harshly or improperly cleaned. And in fact that is the term that the TPGs use. No, they do not put that term on the slabs. But they do not put it on the slab because of space constraints, there isn't room for the extra word. So they shorten it as a matter of convenience and only put cleaned on the slab. But if you look at the TPG definition for the code 92, this is what you find - 92|N-2 Cleaned – surface damage due to a harsh, abrasive cleaning As a general rule, the TPGs will not slab a coin that has been harshly cleaned. But they will slab a coin that has been cleaned. Yes, but when they say whizzed, improperly cleaned, or damage - those are not regular slabs. Those are problem coin slabs - Genuine or Details slabs. But as I said, there are some exceptions, there are times when the TPGs will slab problem (meaning put in a regular slab) coins. Generally these exceptions are used with early coins, or rare, or expensive coins. And sometimes they will even make exceptions for coins of a certain pedigree. No, there isn't. And based on the pics I cannot see any reason for there to be a 92 on the slab. Are you thinking there should be a 92 on the slab ? Do you see something wrong with the coin ?[/QUOTE]

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