Does anyone know who sells AT coins?

Gee Paul that sure is some purty toning (on ugly coins) LOL!
I think Rigo is just tired of all the coin doctors that purposely tone coins to make a quick buck. Some AT toning, lets face it, is rather nice, Lehigh all those ugly nickels, have beautiful toning, I cannot tell which ones are AT and NT, nor will I try, but if I had to guess I would say 1944 D looks a little juiced and artificial.
Rigo, I feel your pain brother, I don't like to see AT coin doctors on ebay, but it happens, and it is going to continue to happen, we cannot put a stop to it, because we'd be taking a very small porton of ebay's profits away, and they wouldn't have that... Even one seller with two identities, that Rigo has sniffed out, is still selling. People found that this seller was selling AT coins, that all had that ugly bright purple/blue/red AT toning, so he decided to sell the same junk under another account, and people still buy from him. I guess it is just ignorance, or some people might really like that toning, I guess it all depends on the buyer.

 

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Well Eddie, my simple definition would be an AT coin a coin with color which has been induced, intentional, accelerated, or chemically applied. A NT coin is that with colors resulting [SIZE=-1]from long term storage within coin albums, canvas bags, envelopes[/SIZE] etc...

Lehigh96 I wont be able to prove that, but from my little experience they just don't have the eye appeal as a NT coin. Now to your question. Those are some beautiful toned nickels and I would atleast like to guess but the pictures are very small. This is exactly what I like though. People answering and giving their acknowledgment and opinions to the toned coin category of the hobby.

mark_h that is very true. It is true we can only do so much. This is the reason why I started this thread. To give new collectors of toned coins the ideas and opinions we all have. To understand how we agree and disagree when it comes to AT & NT Coins.

xtrmbrdr, When I first started I also bought a couple of AT coins. I'm sure we all learned in a similar way at first. Like some of the guys here mentioned "It takes time & years of experience" to identify a NT from a AT coin. Although like others have mentioned. Sometimes you can't identify a AT coin just like the TPGs sometimes can't either.

rockdude, whats up buddy. It is true and very sad that people sell them on ebay and don't say whether it's AT or NT. This can be for simple reasons such as 1. They don't know how to tell and rather not mention it. Or 2. They are coin doctors that rather not mention it to get a fool to buy it.

Did you know there are coin doctors out there on ebay which even have 2 accounts to rip people off from 2 separate accounts to make even more money? Well, I don't know if you are allowed to mention them on this forum but I did at coinhood. I can also give the names if not permitted here my PM if you'd like.

Thanks for all of you responses guys. I see things with even more curiosity now. Lehigh96, my buddy Tmoneyeagles is a big fan of yours....lol he told me you would most likely jump fast into this thread. I am always open to opinions. Thanks again :whistle:

 

Very true T$. This is exactly why I also did this thread. You know how much I hate those people that do that. I'm sure you know exactly who I'm talking about. I've been threatened by them because I confront all of them. Not that it bothers or scares me. Just with they showed up to my house one day so they won't be able to sell ever again....lol :computer:

If you feel that you are wasting your time in giving your opinion then please dont write. It is as simple as that.

 

I don't think anybody should feel like that, this is one of the most important topics in numismatics, and I think everybody should learn as much as they can about it

 

Second row, last coin on right.
http://reviews.ebay.com/FAKE-RAINBOW-TONED-COINS-ARTIFICIAL-COLORS_W0QQugidZ10000000004261378

 

Please know that I am not opposed to your idealism in this matter. I certainly do not condone misleading anyone into a purchase, but as many others have noted ( including myself) in other threads, there is no currently available means of determining how much time or chemical reaction has been involved in any toned coin, so there is no scientific way of determining very good AT from NT. V/V, there is no way of determining NT from AT scientifically, it is all subjective decisions rather than objective.

Tone doctors are like a baseball pitcher going against the Yankees ( PCGS,NCG). If they are little league, they will be "No Graded", same for HS level. At the college level, maybe some hit, some strikeout, but a major league pro can do very well against them. Many know as much about chemistry as a chem professor, or they may be one.

They will check the coin if slabbed to see if photos are on the net or at the services and won't use one that was recently graded. Check if raw coins have been on ebay, etc. Prepare the coins ( not explained as not necessary for argument)
Set up a vacuum chamber to remove the air slowly from slabs, and then release "toning chemicals" as a gas into the chamber. Toning can be done in minutes or more slowly over days or weeks ( How is this different from putting into an old album or setting on a windowsill, or oak plank). Prepare coin for sale ( again not necessary for argument). The only difference is really intention and time, factors impossible to discern...except for the time factor if you can find the coin was photographed white a couple of months ago and photos are available.

My apology to those who feel they can tell the difference by looking, as my feeling is that you are looking at minor league doctor's work. Either enjoy or hate them for their appearance.

If someone sells a coin that is suspected of being AT, and does not claim it is NT, do they have a responsibility to the buyer?

If you said yes, does not the same logic apply to a person who has a suspected dipped coin that is bright white? Why is dipping different than toning?

Jim

 

desertgem, what ever you said is always in my books taken into consideration. I do disagree with you in some of the things you write though. Simply because there is a difference when you "alter" a coins toning by accelerating or trying to make it tone faster in any way. Now I do agree that not always can you tell if it is an AT coin but most of the time you would. Same goes with dipping a coin. If you can notice it, good. If not, then good luck. But, both are altering a coin and if noticed, it should be brought out to every ones attention so people don't buy such coins from this so called "doctors" period! Whether it's dipped, whizzed, cleaned, AT in any way should not be sold and there should be a law that says " if you alter a coin in any way, you will be punished in the worst possible way".

Now this is my opinion. I believe in collecting natural white or naturally toned coins. Whether we can prove it or not. But we will never learn how to identify or teach others if we don't try to learn the differences on how to identify and notice how they are made and done. By learning, arguing, and disagree, and agree, we will not know. By allowing people to go on their way buying this man made things and staying quiet, then why should there be real coin collecting hobby? What is the point of collecting coins if we let people make fake unnatural coins? What is the point of collecting something that should be beautiful and historical if we don't try to teach others what a natural beautiful and historical coin should be and look like? I can keep on and on with this kind of questions.

Then again, we all have different opinions. I simply don't like coin doctors. When the day comes with a law that says "if you know a someone who alters coins. REPORT THEM & they will be punished." I will be one of the first to give a long list. Why? Because this is what I think coin collecting is about.

 

T$, I thought your professional toned coin collector buddies you mentioned to me were going to give me more of a hard time or be more informational than I thought. To me they agree with this AT coin sellers out there which makes me pretty sick! I will leave this post as is. It is sad though that there is even people out there that find it to be okay for this so called "doctors" to sell there AT coins. lol.....

 

Well just send all the toned coins in the world to me for cleaning. Nothing a gallon of Tarnex would not fix. Then no more problems about AT or NT. Traci

 

Bottom line, you shouldn't change a coin purposely, in an unatural way, to tone it and make some money, it isn't right, and ruins the coin (Some of it does)
Rigo I agree, it is BS to just say "Doctoring Coins is okay" it is not, unless you mention that you doctored it in the auction
Question to you people who think it is okay, if it really was okay, why wouldn't they say in the auction; "Oh I did (this) and (that) to tone this coin artificially,bid accordingly"
If it was really okay, they would state that it is AT, and what they had done.

 

And what are these differences? are they measureable? I have only seen hearsay on this such as "floating on top", continues to change color in inert holders, etc. Show me a scientific reference as to chemical difference a spectrometer could measure.

How would you know? Again if you are dealing with amateur coin doctors, anyone could know. I don't know you so perhaps you are good enough to do so, congratulations, perhaps you are a PCGS grader, good! I wish you the best of luck in continuing to do so. Overconfidence can be a dangerous thing.

I have no problem with coin doctors and dippers being outed, but one had better have proof beyond " Because I think so".

Again either love or hate toned coins, as in my humble opinion, you can only determine poorly done doctoring. It is one thing to be judgmental about things that can be proven , but quite another to be so only on subjective determination.

Jim

 

This thread was written in a way to try to just warn others about scammers, and maybe have some other opinions, and personal experiences.
We found a coin doctor, who does poor work, and has two different accounts for doing so. If he had nothing to hide, he wouldn't need to accounts, and if he didn't know it was wrong, he would have two accounts.
IMO, it is wrong to artificially tone your coins, yourself, for the sole purpose of a profit. Yes on the other end it is usually a newbie who doesn't know know any better, fault could be blamed both ways.
Once again I go back to my point earlier on if this was totally 100% okay, then why doesn't the seller state in the listing that he toned the coin himself, or what he had done to the coin? I will tell you why, because he would lose business, and we would all just know he is just another coin doctor. Rigo, has been working with toned coins, and sells a plentiful amount of them, and owns and collects them as well, he is a good seller, and a good friend of mine, am I saying he is a "PCGS GRADER"? No, but I will say this, he knows his stuff, he isn't and idiot, or some lose fingered newbie starting a thread because he is throwing a temper tantrum over a seller, no, he does this to support himself and his family, and has put much time and effort, into the study of toned coins, he probably made the mistake back when he was a younger, more naive collector, and doesn't want it that mistake to be made again. All he is saying is, be careful from coin doctors, and try to learn some differences between AT and NT, and ask friends and co-collectors if they know any coin doctors, or suspicious sellers to stay away from.

 

For the record, I don't advocate "coin doctoring" or "ATing" of coins. My only problem is that there are NT coins that have AT indicators and AT coins that have none. There are a whole group of coins that are questionably toned which are impossible to classify as AT or NT. With regards to these coins, I think that the AT coins are acceptable because they are indiscernible from the NT coins.

Furthermore, Rigo, if you have been selling toned coins for a significant period of time, chances are very high that you have sold at least a few AT coins without even knowing it. In that sense, you are either guilty of what you despise, or we agree.

 

Well most people (not all) on this board have cleaned, preservered, or dipped a coin at one time or another. Just not like the coin Doctors - whose sole purpose is to profit from the coin. I think dealers on this site know some of the major coin doctors but do not out them - I do not blame them for being cautious. So I would not lump everybody in the same category. Just my opinion.

 

If one proclaims to be qualified to determine the difference between AT/NT, they certainly cannot do it simply by looking at a picture. It requires a degree in chemistry as well as many years of experience in the study of metallurgy. Now those individuals may be able to offer an educated guess, at best. Coin in hand is the only way anyone with those credentials would assume to offer an expert opinion. When we ( myself included ) are presented with a piece in a forum to offer an opinion on, we are simply stroking our own ego's, as most of us I will assume do not hold those degrees or experience in that field of study as it pertains to this discussion.

 

Selling, not for a long time. Collecting toned coins yes. I do agree with you that maybe I have sold a AT coin without me even noticing it was an AT coin. But I never said all coins are detectable. I did mention there are occasions where you just can't tell like some TPGs who also do the same.

coinman0456, but we need to do this simply because with every ones opinions, egos, and degree of expertise is the best way to absorb a little bit of knowledge from everyone posting here. So far, I am liking the responses I have been getting from tmoneyeagles, Lehigh96, desertgem who seem to know the most about this matter on this thread. Now, I like when people talk and say what they think and know because it helps me in my studies. I personally have little experience in chemistry and non in study of metallurgy. But have gone through many thousands of toned coins and studied them very close.

Now by no means am I calling my self an expert, but know a whole lot of what I collect. My main problem is the people who do sell AT coins, don't say it on descriptions when selling (which should be illegal).

I can defenetly show proof of some sellers artificially toning coins. I am not overconfident just like to speak my mind and love the danger zone desertgem. Now if you are a very knowledgeable coin doctor, I would love to know how you do this unidentifiable toning. To study and learn the differences in identifying both NT and AT.:kewl:

 

Ok, you know him personally, but what if JOEBLOW101 starts a similar thread and say Rigo is a CD because JOEBLOW101 collects and sells toned coins and he (JOEBLOW101) knows them and Rigo should be listed in public as a Coin Doctor? What could Rigo or anybody do to prove it wasn't so? This is what is being asked. If you accuse someone ( even if there is circumstancial evidence such as 2 ebay accounts) you had better have solid evidence, as it is their livelyhood, the same as Rigo's.

Jim

 

That is very true tmoneyeagles. You know I've even been threatened by some of them, but when my lawyer called them they stopped very fast. Either way, they mentioned of making thousands in selling this coins to unsuspecting buyers and laughed about it. This is the reason why I bring such topics at times.

 

This is like a question " Have you stopped beating your girlfriend",either answer is incriminating. If I was such a Coin Doctor, I certainly wouldn't admit it ( Who with some brains would??), and I certainly wouldn't tell you how I could do it. I know my ethics, but I don't know yours, so I would keep control of my own actions. If there was a scientific test that could distinguish the market definition of AT from NT, I would readily post references, but I know of none that are non-destructive. Chemical processes are chemical processes. The natural environment in your local may be way different from mine, so toning time and processes ( end products) may be different. As I said before, currently differentiation is all subjective, and for the best doctor's work most will slip below the market's subjective level. Time and intent is all subjective and those are the keys in the definition of AT/NT. IMHO.

Jim

 

I am the first one to say that it is impossible in many instances to discern between NT & AT and I do have one of those degrees. I hold a BS in Materials Science & Engineering from Lehigh University. Materials Science has 3 different fields: metals, polymers, and ceramics. My study was in metals with a focus on corrosion. The real problem is that precious metals are not engineering materials. To my knowledge, nobody has ever done serious research on corrosion of silver or gold alloys. I have long thought it would be a great idea for a doctorate thesis.