Do you think that Roma Numismatics overestimate the value of their lots?

@rich

Thank you for your reply.

With regard to the opening bid there were one Justinian and one Justin II, both half siliqua, and my mind must have confused it.

I will keep that Ravenna-coin since the price doesn't fall out of line as much as I thought earlier.

 

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Your estimates may be reasonable, but your opening bids should be lowered to 50% of low estimate (to compensate for the more accurate estimates.) In the end, a well advertised auction will get a coin sold at a fair price. I can't tell you how many lots I pass on because of your auction setup. It kills enthusiasm for any coin, and thus draws fewer bidders. Many of the auctions seem to be little more than a retail sale, presented as an auction.

Also, your auctions often seem full of coins on consignment (thus the high opening bid) and when you purchase a hoard, your estimates seem to drop (creating a lower entry point and more bidders.)

The unsold lots are rarely worth looking at since they are the minimum bid plus FULL buyers premium.

After decades bidding on auctions (art, coins, maps, books,) I humbly suggest that you rethink your approach. I believe it can be improved.

btw I am a customer, although that should be of little importance.

 

While it's not my intention to defend or castigate a particular auctioneer, the above post puzzles me in a few ways:

Most auction houses set their opening bid to 70% - 80% of their estimate. Roma sets it at 80%. If their estimates are reasonable, why should they change their opening bid? What does "more accurate estimates" have to do with anything?

What, exactly, is a "fair price" at a coin auction?

Do you mean the entire auction's "setup" or are just disagreeing with the 80% opening bid price? What's wrong with Roma's "setup?"

It's my understanding that (legally) the auction house is representing the seller not the buyer. Most lots will be from individual consigners and not owned by the auction house. So it's the goal of the auctioneer to please its clients and get the highest auction price that still garners bidders. What's wrong with that?

You can always make an offer less than the opening bid. I've done this, and while my offer failed, I later won the coin at a different auction for a lower price than I privately offered the previous auctioneer.

4to2centBC, please don't misunderstand -- I'm not questioning your sincerity in raising these issues that bother you, but I genuinely don't understand the above points you're trying to make.

 

I will try to address this quickly.

Others use 80%, but their estimates are lower than an equiv specimen from Roma (since he aims for more realistic price) Therefore they have lower entry levels than Roma. MEANWHILE those other auctioneers know that they will deliver more bidders and higher prices for their sellers.

Take a Deka that is worth $15k (a fair price in this example) You put a 10k estimate on it, put an opening bid of $8k on it, and it will sell better than putting a $15k estimate with an entry price of $12k. IN fact, put an opening price of $1 on it, in a Heritage Auction, and it will sell for probably more.

AS for making offers afterwards, yes, you can offer afterwards, but once again, that is a flaw of the auction setup. The number of unsolds are very high on Roma compared to any other major house.

Richard can do what he wants, but he is missing the bigger picture IMO.

 

How do you know this?

Can you direct me to the source where you find these statistics? While I have access to a number of websites where auction results (including hammer prices) are aggregated, I can't seem to find statistics on data such as which auction houses have higher vs. lower estimates for similar lots, or which auction sites deliver higher prices on similar lots, or which auction sites have more bidders per lot than other sites.

I can make my own personal observations about certain sites (e.g., NAC seems to get consistently high prices for most of their lots) but I've never been able to find reliable analytical data comparing anything other than hammer prices and percentage of lots sold among different auctioneers. This additional information would certainly be useful for potential bidders.

 

Yes I can direct you, but I have already given away more than I should. I usually get paid for this advice. However, based on what you wrote, you are looking in the wrong places for the wrong type of info.

 

Actually, I'm only asking you to verify the information that you wrote above. But if this information is proprietary and you're not allowed to release it to others, I fully understand and respect your decision not to disseminate it publicly or privately.

 

I heartily agree that lower estimates will quite often result in a better sale price than a higher estimate, but this is not always the case - particularly with very rare coins that are not universally understood. However, you are thinking like a potential buyer, and you would think somewhat differently if you look at the issue from the seller's point of view. The owner of the $15k deka would never in his or her right mind consign it to any auction house that proposed to list it at a $1 estimate, or even perhaps at a $10k esimate, if they have in fact themselves paid more for it. Nobody wants to gamble unnecessarily that the right bidders wake up and come to the auction if they don't have to. I can't begin to tell you how many times consignors have complained to me that such-and-such auction house listed their property at low estimates/starting prices, and having not set reserves, were left nursing serious losses when the lots failed to take off, or left disappointed when it showed up shortly thereafter in another sale and made double.

It's really not that different to when you sell any valuable property, such as your family home - would YOU trust a real-estate agent who said they'd put it up for sale listed at a couple of bucks, see what offers rolled in, and then sell it at the end of the month regardless?

The notion of starting at 50% of estimate is an undeniably attractive one from an auctioneer’a perspectice. It virtually guarantees that every lot will sell. Would I like to see every single lot in every auction be sold? Of course, but not at the expense of our consignors. As a company, we’re content to perhaps make a little less money, but protect the interests of the consignors who place their trust in us to sell their property for them.

 

I've purchased from Roma in the past and have always been satisfied with the coin, the price and the service. Richard has always been great to deal with, even before his auctions went online. 10 years? Where has the time gone?

I would however like to see lower commissions on unsold lots or an easy way to make an offer that includes all fees. Being in North America, by the time you add commission, shipping and exchange you can end up paying a significant sum for a common coin.

 

I was pretty specific, so I would not have to defend the statement I expected you to make. But here I am defending it, again. Pro bono. So I will be brief.

I said Heritage because they are well advertised (sorry but your firm does not compare when it comes to eye balls) I would never suggest YOU try to sell someones Deka starting at a dollar. You draw too few bids in general, compared to the others. However, HA regularly starts bids at $1 but lists a realistic estimate. Nothing sells cheap. It's all about eyeballs and bidding activity.

You have less of the first and are killing the second. That is why I recommended 50% and not $1 for you. While I might occasonally buy from you, I would never auction through you for all the reasons I have stated. A no-sale means another long delay in selling and you (Roma) end up with far too many unsolds.

As for those who moaned about their low estimates and sales.....well, they should consign instead, because that is where they can best satisfy their expectations.

I would not auction off my precious home. I would consign it with a reserve price (it's called hiring a real estate agent)

Anyhow, it is your business, run it anyway you wish. I will sleep well either way.

M

 

The only reason I don't bid on Roma Numismatic Auctions is because the exchange rate is killer from British Pound to CAD!

 

Last week I bought a coin for 35 gbp and after fees and shipping it came out to over 100cad.. just brutal. I'd like to buy more from Roma because they usually have some interesting pieces but I can't afford that exchange rate

 

They also regularly list coins with large reserves.

Anyway, I regularly buy from and would use Roma to auction my coins, I just hope I never have too! I'm looking forward to a delivery in the near future for two recent purchases, one at auction and one unsold.
@Rich Beale runs a excellent auction and his participation here highlights the benefits of a smaller operation, namely attention to detail and personal interest. Imagine another auction house willing to buy back a coin because a person was afraid they might have bid to much?? Unheard of!
I'll tell you a story about Heritage. I bought a coin ($68 as I recall) that turned out to be a fake. Joe over at Forvm is the one who caught it. Well, Heritage agreed it was probably fake but they didn't want to give me a refund. So, I stopped buying from heritage for a couple years until they listed a coin I really wanted. I bid on that coin and won the auction but it really irritated me that I bought from a company that wouldn't take back a fake. I called them to complain again and this time they broke down (after reviewing my earlier complaints that were still on file) and gave me a credit toward a future auction.
Imo, there are a lot of benefits buying from and consigning to a smaller but classy firm like Roma.

 

What an unpleasant response by @4to2centBC

Managed to miss the point, be rude, AND suggest he should be paid for his opinions...

 

Since 2015 you have only had 10 posts on the forum and they have all been in defense of Roma... you must be quite a fan

Whether one agrees with what @4to2centBC said or not I found his commentary to contain an interesting perspective and I'm glad he shared his thoughts.

For my part I have been pleased in my dealings with Roma. If I think something is overpriced I simply don't bid on it, same as any auction.

 

Hi Jim, thanks as ever for being on my side. However I don’t really have a problem with what was written above. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and hopefully the point I have tried to make will be understood by the wider readership.

Jim is a good friend, and if I may count him also as a dedicated ‘fan’ then I consider myself doubly fortunate.

Ultimately, while one post on a forum will rarely change any company’s policy or modus operandi, I consider all opinions expressed here to have been valid in their own way. One of our ultimate goals as a company is to create an auction platform that is as inclusive, user-friendly, and effective as possible. Feedback from said users is invaluable in this task, and for that reason I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to reply to this thread.

We do have a brand new website and database system in the pipeline, which we expect to deploy once revisions and testing are complete. This will go some way to improving the user-friendliness aspect of our auction model as well as introducing powerful new functionality. Though there are currently no plans to revise our starting point of 80% of estimate, we are actively looking at ways of promoting bidder ‘inclusiveness’ which will both reward our loyal bidders and perhaps improve auction effectiveness (read % of lots sold) at the same time.

Yes, one of the benefits of being a ‘small enterprise’ is the ability to put more of a personal touch into what we do, and to take our customers’ opinions into consideration. In that vein of thought I will, at the appropriate time, open up a dedicated thread on this forum to ask what you as a potential bidder or seller would ideally like to see added to the new iteration of our auction platform, and what rewards if any, you might potentially like to see for your valued custom.

 

Hi Ajax, you can ask us to hold your purchases and ship several together once they’ve accumulated. If you’re only buying a couple of coins a month, this could be a cost effective option for you.

Similarly, with respect to exchange rates - I advise signing up to a FX service such as transferwise or xe.com who usually offer considerably better rates than your bank or Paypal.

 

Really? I think you have missed the point. I have listened to people complain about Richs auctions since his very first. I finally decide to share advice and then find myself spending far too much time explaining every detail.

I did not suggest I should get paid for my advice. I stated clearly that I normally get paid for my advice and I was doing this for free....therefore I had no plans to offer more advice (free or otherwise.) I guess you would expect free legal advice from an attorney and free medical advice from a physcian, just because you demand more explaining. It is YOU that missed the point.

Rich can and will do whatever he wishes. I don't care. I slept well last night....and will again tonight.

I swear that some of you suffer from reading comprehension. Now THAT is rude...

 

I want to echo everyone's comments on Roma - great auction house, wonderful service, quick shipping - it is up to individual collector to do due diligence and research on pricing, rarity, etc. - if you can't do that - you are lost to me...As IdesOfMarch01 pointed out - in this day and age it is fairly simple to do - if you are too lazy to do that – overpay – complaint -whine; no need to blame auction houses or third parties for your laziness..

 

I would love to know how to do searches like that, but I cannot afford $600 per year for the privilege. If you have a method that is more cost effective, then please spill the beans for those of us who do not live with a cell phone attached. I use a computer to access the Internet. Can I do all the searches of which you speak? Is there an ap for THAT?