Do you own coins which were rare when you bought them, but no longer due to NEW HOARDS ?

I have a modest collection of type 1 double eagles. A few years ago a bought an 1853/2 variety coin in a circulated grade. Very nice piece and much better than most. Sometime in last couple of years a hoard was discovered that apparently had a lot of this particular variety. How that happens where it impacts just one variety, I can't imagine. The stash must have been from the bank bag or something - but one might expect that to be more likely with uncirculated coins, no? I mean, once they get out in circulation I wouldn 't expect an esoteric variety like that to dominate any "bunch" of them - but it happened. So the value went around 4K to $2500 based on Heritage sales. I was fortunate to trade it for something else that I wanted for a different collection - a trade that worked pretty well for both parties. But wow, it is sobering - it seems like double eagles are particularly vulnerable to hoards - makes sense I guess. If someone is going to stash gold somewhere it's most likely going to be the heaviest pieces. With Morgans I can imagine where they could come straight from a bank to rolls or whatever and they might all be same year, same mint - seems to make more sense. But one strange variety of a $20 gold piece gathered together?

 

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Hmm. Are most hoards of same dates/mint marks? It seems like many of the storied ones, like the Economite or Binion hoards, were accumulated over many years.

https://www.money.org/collector/user_37612/blog/the-economite-hoard-

 

Actually, if you read excellent books (and articles) by great researchers like Roger Burdette, it's not that surprising.

Most of these hoards were not circulated coins, they were used to settle balance-of-payments overseas (Europe, South/Central America). Less than 0.1% of a typical mintage got circulated or put in a SDB or kept in a house as a store of wealth.

In Europe, you didn't have a functioning economy with good reporting until the 1950's and 1960's as they recovered from WW II. So it wasn't surprising that you had "long lost" bags of Double Eagles (mostly Saints) in European banks.

South/Central American banks were decades behind technologically and reporting standards-wise.....we found hoards there in the 1970's and 1980's.

My theory is that if there are substantial hoards today they might be in South/Central American ex-dictators or elected officials hands. So much corruption there, even elected officials bought-off by corrupt legal businesses OR drug lords. I could easily see an elected official with a few bags of Double Eagles worth a few million dollars.

 

I think that's what I said? The question is how do you wind up with a plethora of circulated coins that are of the same variety?

 

Nope. My specialties are early Walkers. Little has surfaced over the years....a few raw coins have been made here and there.....but certainly no hoards, so I think that I'm safe. The short set Walkers have taken a real hit, in all MS grades, but they were ALWAYS plentiful.

 

Were you talking to me, Fiddle ?

If you were, I'm guessing that similar coins "leaked out" or were used to settle overseas commerce and trade and thus would have the same varities, die characteristics, etc.

 

There's a book on hoards (Bowers) and there might be articles, too.

But for the most part, you wouldn't find a hoard among Walkers because you wouldn't see a huge amount accumulated in 1 spot like you do larger denomination coins.

The Redfield Hoard -- the guy was saving silver, he didn't trust paper money, and he was rich, ergo lots of silver dollars.

Double Eagle Hoards -- bags of coin were used to settle trade accounts, not gold bars.

 

Liberty Head Double Eagle fans.....why so few hoards overseas in Europe or south of the border (South or Central America) ?

I know international trade was much less than in the 1920's but you would think a bag or two would have been protected from FDR's 1937 coin melt.

 

Who says there aren't bags sitting around somewhere. You don't know whats out there until it comes to light just like with all the "discovered" morgan hoards. You can take educated guesses but unless you know for sure something was completely melted down coins like that could be sitting in a vault somewhere

 

Well, you're right I don't know....but Doug Winter and a few others have alluded to "hoards" of Carson City and other Liberty Head DEs coming here in the last few years (one reason prices were weak). But I haven't heard or read of dozens of coins coming this way, let alone bags.

To be honest, I was even surprised to read about these "mini-hoards" coming back across the Atlantic. Sounds more like stray coins here and there, but given the low numbers for many Liberty Head DE's, every little bit counts.

Also, I would think given the low number of high-quality Liberty DE's from 1850-1900, that you'd see a HUGE move in price if even a few dozen came back this way, let alone any larger numbers.

 

Thats the thing about hoards and what's hiding out there, you don't know about it until it's found. There's almost certainly some out there just like there's more bags of Morgans, when they will come to light and how many who knows. We really only find out about hidden things when they go up for sale or get graded. Just look what happened with the Saddle Ridge Hoard, no one knew that was there

 

Let me clarify...we KNEW there were huge amounts of Saint-Gaudens overseas in the European banks...a bit less so South of The Border....we found hoards and mini-hoards.

I was just surprised there doesn't seem to be anywhere near the quantity of Liberty DE's in Europe compared to Saints.

Would love to see some numers -- even guestimates -- on both coins that were brought back. Not sure its ever been quantified.

 

No idea where I got it, but I certainly didn't buy it before 1962. Either grandma had it and just gave it to me (unlikely), or I bought it in the last 2 or 3 years.

 

I know a dealer just a year ago tell me he was talking at a show with a customer how there are never any quantities of early Walkers to buy, and another customer was listening. When they got done, the one listening simply placed two plastic tubes of halves in his hand, AU-BU 1919d halves. The dealer friend said he bought them.

Now, I have no idea about early Walkers, how scarce that date may be or anything, but just goes to show there are still quantity around.

Now, certainly not like ancients. In ancients our market is simply designed to deal with hoards, and absorb them. I would imagine its a lot different with moderns, since anything buried would not be in the condition you would like. However, there are still enough of us who collected US coins before the stabbing craze that there is still desirable US coins not slabbed, sometime in quantity.

 

It was the 1903-O that really got nailed by the 1962 Treasury release.

The 1902-0 (and 1904-O) were also somewhat scarce/rare. My 1959 Max Mehl Price List has the 1902-0 @ $95 (has the 1903-0 at $500).

 

This is and was an interesting thread. I'm glad to see it rekindled. Watching the major dealers over the last couple of years I noticed that a lot of liberty head double eagles of all sorts have been brought to the US for sale as collectors items - much more recently than in the 10 or 15 years before that. Not exactly hoards, maybe more like the people who knew they were there just decided it was a good time to cash them in. The good news is that many of them have a similar look - kind of dark scuffs and maybe bits of debris - like dust and pieces of fabric - not like the patina that comes from circulation and then someone maybe setting it aside in a collection or just an interesting piece to hang onto - possibly avoiding the big melt. Personally, I don't find it an appealing look. I much prefer a piece that has what I would call honest wear and has all of the varied history locked inside it. I have some really pretty VF35 to 40 or ever 45 graded gold that is just lovely. haha - maybe that's just me. But then I like to take pictures of birds that aren't gathering around bird feeders - .... so maybe in my own crazy way I'm consistent. There's something lovely about things in the wild - birds, coins, pocket knives. Wild critters and stuff that people used. Not the same as objects from vaults or wild things in cages or coming to feeders. Not bad, just different. (crazy guy somewhere in rural New England)

 

Really interesting...did dealers tell you that they had acquired the coins from overseas ? Maybe the supply/demand balance for some of the coins and grades was so well-balanced that just a few coins or 5-20 could make a big difference in pricing and dealer quantities.

Prices for Liberty DE's -- esp. Carson City's -- were strong from like 2010-2016 or so. But then weak gold prices and increased supply seemed to have dropped pricing.

Prices seem to have held up better at the lower grades, where available. Doug Winter's CoinWeek columns mention pricing from time-to-time.

That's the grade you have to accept, sometimes there aren't better coins out there OR they are just too expensive OR they have been cleaned or overgraded. I'm not an expert on Liberty's relative to Saints (if I can be considered one there ) but it seems that Liberty DE grading and quality has been subject to more "games" than the SG series.

Winters was very insistent that, on average, the "new" coins coming from Europe look much better than the domestics.

 

Has anybody read Bowers' HOARD book ?

I was wondering if it gave specifics including number of coins found....or if it was more glorified storytelling ?

 

For sure. Well I suppose obviously all Euro imports don't look the same, although perhaps there are similarities in batches. (wouldn't it nice to tour their vaults?) Doug Winter had a bunch of them a few years ago and yes he said that's where they were from and I saw a couple of them in person and they had a similar look. I even owned a couple of them but traded them off as I didn't really like them all that much. I remember trading one for a another a grade lower and a less common year that looked a lot better - in person and in pictures. Knowing what they look like in person and comparing that look to the pictures (the pictures do get better and better, don't they?) is the best I can do and I think I can spot them ... but that may only be my impression. Maybe when the virus is abated I will actually get to coin shows and see more variety. There's a dark, almost moldy sort of look I don't like much that I may falsely attribute to being from European vaults but I suppose it's the look I don't like, regardless of where it came from. As to MS Saints, there are so many of them compared to pre civil war and Carson City Double Eagles that I suppose it's apples and oranges. I own a common year MS 64 Saint with a CAC sticker on it. I bought it for bullion at a bullion price when gold was way down a few years back. It's lovely. Nicest bullion piece I ever saw.

 

I would like to find that book. "Lost and Found Coin Hoards and Treasures", right?