Do you ever look at old coin pix and think ugh?

Doug,

You are one stubborn man ( I like that , It keeps things interesting).
First, if you read my posts I never called them Die Polish marks, the fact is I do not know how they got on the dies. I just showed you unquestionable proof that criss crossing lines can and do show up on dies as in the 1921 - S Morgan. You indicated this could could not happen, from the three scenarios you presented. A possible explanation, you indicated could be both die lines and coin scratches, which could explain the criss cross.. While I admit the coin may have a scrath or two, I can confidently say the vast majority if not all of those line are on the die.

So how do I know that? Well I followed your advice and wiped/scratched a coin. The results were a real eye opener. First, the hairlines were much harder to detect on the devices as you mentioned, but the were still present, most easily seen on the faces of the broad letters. Now we get to the interesting part........ As the scratches approached the devices, they got weaker, since the devices themselves actually protected the area around them. This is totally logical, since the scratching material would be lifted as it approached the device. There was actaully a halo of a clean field directly surrounding the device. Also there were no scratches in the very protected areas such as the inside of an O. This is not the case on the Morgan or the Indian in question. If you look inside the O on the reverse of the Indian, it has a bunch of scratches. Also the scrathes run right up to the device, and in some case ever get stronger as in the right side of the shield. This is also totally logical, since the scratching material would actually be lowered a bit as it approached the recesses of the device. When you really start to look at this, you can see that die scratches and coin scratches have totally different characteristics.

As for the grade, your statement that "A flaw is a flaw, no matter how or when it got there" you know that is just not true. In one case we have a striking flaw and in another we have PMD. The coin with PMD will take a much bigger hit. In addition an MS65 GEM is far from being a perfect coin. I stand by my opinion that the coin is deserving of the grade.

Mike

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Not a collector of the series but those are beautiful!

 

Probably best to drop this. I thought it might be fun and educational but it's neither.
Lance.

 

This discussion reminds me of something that happened at work once. The shop hired a kid to learn to operate some of the machines. Don, the old hand went out of his way to help the kid out. Don, with over 40 years experience was a whiz with machines, he always kept his tools nice and clean, and well organized.

Well the kid was operating the drill press, and went and asked Don if he could use his micrometer. Don hates to lend out tools, he always bought the best and took good care of them, but he breaks his rule and loans his kid his Micrometer, but tells him he needs it back in a little while.

An hour goes by and the kid does not return his micrometer, so he goes and finds the kid and asks for his micrometer back, the kid says sure it was not working that good anyway, and there the kid had the micrometer on the press, using it like a C- clamp.

The thing is in the shops often times things are not done as consistently right as they should be, and I could see some new kid using a wire brush and scratching a coining die up pretty good.

 

Here's a follow-up story to the 1893 IHC above. I bought it on ebay in 2011 as an MS65RB. $465.18.

In 2019 I consigned it to a dealer who upgraded it twice. Eventually to 66+RD! It then sold at auction for $8500. Unbelievable!

Recently I saw it sold at Stacks in Aug 2021 as an MS67RD for $19,200. Now that's just crazy.
Lance.

https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/item/1893-1c-rd/2186/1989146942328862871

 

I have to find the original referenced post on the 1893 coin, but this thread has an eery feeling to that classic PCGS Thread on Franklin Gradeflation where a guy was legitimately upset that he sent in for a re-grade....nothing happened....coin gets sold for a few hundred bucks....then he sees it in a new holder for 1 1/2 - 2 grades higher (with the FBL designation) selling for 20-50x the price he got or something like that.

What is interesting to me is that PCGS is the TPG here and yet their reputation is higher than NGC's. You wonder if enough of these take place if the multi-decade PCGS premium will start to fade.

If a tree falls in the forest but nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound ? If PCGS-graded coins sell for a premium because others think they are worth more but the grades don't deserve the premium, can it continue ?

 

Updating your own thread from 10+ years ago is awesome. Two grades and from RB to RD is crazy. Here's the Stacks auction, clearly the same coin. https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-S47N4/1893-indian-cent-ms-67-rd-pcgs

 

Did you try and get it re-graded higher ?

 

As an aside....this just shows you how subjective grading is and how questionable (IMO) + and * designations are. We're going to give something the equivalent of a "half point" designation (I know technically it's not considered that, but most people liken it to it).... and yet a few years later coins are going up 2 full grades ????!!!

 

The dealer and I split the profit on the upgrades from 65RB to 66+RD. Fair enough. Whoever bought it as a 66+RD and upgraded it to 67RD, and later sold it (could be more than one person, of course) made a very handsome profit.

No complaints from me.

If you look back in this thread you will find remarks from someone who felt it didn't deserve even a 65. Huh.
Lance.

 

Wow....so a coin went up 2 full grades...and a coin that because of the type and condition and year gets looked at very closely, at that.

Wow.....

 

The used Taco Bell napkin on the window stool exposed to the Sun....40 to 67. Special Sauce.

 

Does anybody ever get called out on this ? Anybody ever explain ?

"Hey, it wasn't an overgrade -- the initial grade was an undergrade" -- just say SOMETHING !!

 

It has in fact happened, on very expensive pieces, and the original owner at the lower grades was compensated.

 

Fascinating....I was pleasantly surprised that the OP here got to split the proceeds with the dealer. Seems like an honest guy to do that.

 

They have been called out on it.
As of a few years ago, and with help from some of the major dealers and major auction houses, Coinfacts decided to eliminate the search of previously sold coins to hide gradeflation from the public eye.
It was exposing them for their dirty little secrets.

 

Again...and I don't claim to have anywhere near the depth and experience of people like you P&G...or GDJMSP...etc.....but it really seems bizarre to me that most of the egregious overgrades belong to PCGS coins.... and yet it is NGC graded coins which sell at a discount !!

 

It really is an example of don't bite the hand that feeds you. In order to do something about the hierarchy, the major dealers would have to stop the practices that make gradeflation happen.