Do you collect Roman Provincials?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by thejewk, Mar 26, 2019.

  1. thejewk

    thejewk Well-Known Member

    When I first started looking at Roman coins with any serious intent towards the end of last year, I dismissed the 'Provincial' coinage that I saw as rustic and more than a little bit crude. After looking again and again over the last few months, I've started to see something else entirely.

    The familiar Roma pantheon replaced by other interesting god and goddess types, dynastic coinage quite different from the Rome mint, interesting 'semi-autonomous' coins telling the story of their city, etc.

    Not only that, but they also offer a way to acquire a coin of an Augustus or -a that would be far more expensive elsewhere.

    And so I added an Antoninus Pius from Antioch, Syria to my collection recently, and I have my eye on others of Lucius Verus and Nerva, and an ugly but charming Commodus with Crispina/Demeter on the reverse.

    Do you collect Provincials, and if so, why? Or why not?
     
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  3. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    When I first started ancients I saw provincials, especially bronze, as "Ghetto", didn't know much about them, the style and look to many seemed pedestrian, but little by little I gave them a chance.

    I tend to focus on Roman Tetradrachms nowadays, & they are considered provincials. I also have several silver drachms and such.

    I do own bronze provincials but admit I don't make them a big priority, but there is many nice ones that can be had for a fraction of what an Imperial would run you normally.

    And really most provincials have much more interesting history to them that Imperials. Many are cities & areas lost to history & only known to coins.

    That's itself is pretty cool.
     
  4. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    I prefer imperial mainly because of the generally better workmanship and ease of reading the legends - I struggle with the cluttered Greek legends and clunky fonts a lot more than I do with, say, Hellenistic coinage. I do and will collect provincial if:

    1) It is of a person who is otherwise unobtainable at my income level (or at all)
    Tranquillina AE hadrianopolis.jpg
    Tranquillina - her Imperial coins run in the 4 to 5 digits! I paid less than $100 for this coin

    Gaius lucius caesares ae.jpg
    Gaius & Lucius - they don't appear on imperial coins at all, unless you count the faceless figures on the back of Augustus' denarii.

    2) It is of a client king

    Thrace rhoemetalces augustus ae15.jpg
    Augustus & Rhoemetalkes of Thrace

    3) Admittedly, pseudo-autonomous coinage is growing on me, and I'm tempted to build a collection at some point. Not imperial, but still minted under the Romans:
    Mysia Pergamon Asklepius Soteros.jpg
    Mysia, Pergamon AE pseudo autonomous, 2nd-1st century BC

    4) Some of the more artistic types are also appealing; in particular the tetradrachms of Antioch and Alexandria!
     
  5. Ancient Aussie

    Ancient Aussie Well-Known Member

    When I first started collecting I was the same ignoring provincial as the portraiture didn't seem as nice as the Imperial, but when I moved onto collecting architecture I noticed such a wide variety of city walls/gates, triumphal arches temples to name a few and it gave me a whole new insight into provincials. Nikopolis gate.jpg
    Roman Provincial, Moesia Inferior, Nicopolis ad Istrum, Gordian III (238-244 AD) Æ 27 (12.43g) Sabinius Modestus, legatus consularis., City Gate, Obv.: Laureate and draped bust right. Rev.: Arched gate flanked by two roofed towers with arched windows in uppermost story. Varbanov 4182. Rare! NGC XF.
     
  6. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    Like many collectors I started to collect Imperial coins with the aim to get at least one coin from each emperor. I quickly realized that this was not possible for financial reasons.

    Then I discovered the provincial coins which I had always been afraid of because they were so confusing. My luck was that I had not only Latin in school, but also Greek. But that's not a problem, because you quickly understood the few letters. Ok, you can't get a book like RIC where all coins are listed. There are too much.
    But a whole new world opened up: If you are interested in ancient mythology, you can't avoid provincial coins. In comparison, the imperial coins are boring as hell. Ok, you can work with them historically, especially if you study their legends. I then always speak of Avers collectors. But I am a Reverse collector. And especially the coins from Asia Minor and the Middle East have taken a liking to me. This multiplicity at deities and this multiplicity at allusions to important events and persons gives it only here.

    This was the basis for my series "Mythologically interesting coins" in the Forum Ancient Coins and led then to the edition of my books "Coins and ancient mythology" (so far only in German).

    And then my main field of work is to record the coin issues of Nikopolis ad Istrum as completely as possible. A work in progress which I published together with Prof. Jekov already in the 10th Edition (in English).

    With kind regards
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2019
  7. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    i collect provincial Romans coins...like all said before, they offer much. and i have no qualm with putting them in my collection, but i was as most were at 1st collecting just Rome mint ones...here's my last provincial i bought of Trebonus Gallus* about the size of a sestertius with a very interesting reverse Trebonus Gallus  Romans  Christmas 2018 002.JPG Trebonus Gallus  Romans  Christmas 2018 004.JPG ..:)
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  8. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    I absolutely love them and I have several hundred! They depict deities and scenes that rarely appear -- if at all -- on imperial issues. They depict buildings and statuary with local/regional appeal. They come in all sizes, from little assaria to big 11-assarion pieces. They come from all over the Roman world and you can learn a lot about geography and history from them.

    Sure, some of them aren't of the highest artistic standard ...

    Caligula and Caesonia.jpg
    Caligula AD 37-41.
    Roman provincial Æ 28 mm, 11.17 gm.
    Carthago Nova, Spain, AD 37-38 .
    Obv: C. CAESAR AVG. GERMANIC. IMP. P.M. TR.P. COS., laureate head of Caligula, r.
    Rev: CN. ATEL. FLAC. CN. POM. FLAC. II. VIR. Q.V.I.N.C., head of Salus r., SAL AVG across field.
    Refs: SGI 419; Heiss 272, 35; Cohen 247, 1; RPC 1, 185; SNG Cop 503.

    But some are quite well-rendered ...

    Severus Alexander Marcianopolis Asklepios.jpg
    Severus Alexander, AD 222-235.
    Roman Provincial Æ 27.2 mm, 8.75 g, 6 h.
    Marcianopolis, Moesia Inferior, Legate Um. Tereventinus, AD 226-227.
    Obv: AVT K M AVP CEVH AΛEZANΔPOC, laureate, draped and cuirassed bust right.
    Rev: HΓ ȢM TEPEBENTINOV MAPKIANOΠOΛIT-ΩN, Asklepios standing facing, head left, holding serpent staff.
    Refs: AMNG I 1027; Moushmov 696; Varbanov 1685 (same dies).

    And how else can you get a coin of Tranquillina with the statue of Marsyas in the Roman Forum on the reverse?

    [​IMG]

    Tranquillina AD 241-244.
    Roman provincial Æ 24.1 mm, 8.06 g.
    Thrace, Deultum, AD 241-244.
    Obv: SAB TRANQVILLINA AVG, diademed and draped bust, right.
    Rev: COL FL PAC DEVLT, Marsyas as Silenus facing right, carrying wine skin over left shoulder and raising right arm.
    Refs: Moushmov 3757; Youroukova 425, 4/II; cf. SNG Cop 549.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  9. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Provincials can be "rustic and crude"; so can imperials. When I want a beautiful coin I tend to shop in the Greek aisle, although beautiful Roman imperial and provincial coins exist.

    What attracts me to provincials is the wider range of reverse scenes, the expanded pantheon, and in general the greater mystery and unknown. Imperials are comparatively well studied-- some RIC volumes assign different classification numbers based on the smallest of details (just look at the spate of Flavian rarities we've seen lately). Provincials are less well studied or perhaps just less well organized in terms of cohesive cataloguing.

    As a generalization, perhaps imperials have greater appeal for people who like order and detail, people who enjoy studying looking for subtle differences, people who like to check things off lists. Perhaps it is also easier to see known Roman history in the imperial coins. I gravitate towards odd reverse scenes, uncommon or unusual deities, and the unknown and those types of coins are more common in provincials.

    Portraits aren't of great interest to me although a fine style portrait or, conversely, an exceptionally bad portrait, might make me notice a particular coin even if the reverse is not exciting. If you are focused on portraiture, imperials are certainly the way to go for Roman coins.

    Perhaps the best thing is to collect both! :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  10. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    i bought these solely because they were provincials(and i didn't have any coins of either emperor, nor a counterstamped one)..it's the only way you'll have a reverse like this.. Lucius Verus and 2 Severus Alexanders..Cappadocia bronzes featuring Mt. Argaeus Ae Lucius Verus, Mt. Argeus Cappadocia 001.JPG Ae Lucius Verus, Mt. Argeus Cappadocia 004.JPG scotty tribble purse Cappadocia Severus Alex Mt Arg. coins 002.JPG scotty tribble purse Cappadocia Severus Alex Mt Arg. coins 003.JPG
     
  11. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    Provincials are a major part of the rich tapestry of Roman currency. Missing out on them is to not fully understand the Roman coinage system. Plus, you'll be overlooking a lot of great numismatic art!

    @TIF's correct, collect both!
     
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  12. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Both, definitely, but I collect coins: Greek, Roman, sort-of Greek, sort-of Roman, enemies of the Greeks, enemies of the Romans, people who traded with the Greeks, people who traded with the Romans, people who had heard of the Greeks, people who had heard of the Romans, and even coins that fit in none of those categories.

    David is correct, listen to TIF.
     
  13. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    variety is truly the spice of life...and coin collecting ^^
     
  14. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    I enjoy collecting Roman Provincial for all the reasons that have been mentioned already, specifically that it gives me the ability to focus a bit on a particular area and dive deep into its history and coinage, then I find another spark and chase that one a little while, and so on... Lots of variety!

    I personally am digging heavily into Roman Antioch (and broadening lately into Roman Syria in general)...
    CollageMaker_20190326_221946763.jpg
    Lucius Verus

    CollageMaker_20190326_222241562.jpg
    Marcus Aurelius as Caesar

    As well as, Roman Hispania...
    CollageMaker_20190326_213818487.jpg
    Augustus and Livia

    CollageMaker_20190326_221517428.jpg
    Tiberius

    Roman Egypt...
    CollageMaker_20190209_104421428.jpg
    Claudius

    CollageMaker_20181213_183541257.jpg
    Trajan

    And a bit into Viminacium and Dacia...
    CollageMaker_20190326_215036930.jpg
    Gordian III, Viminacium

    CollageMaker_20190326_220445228.jpg
    Philip I, Provincia Dacia

    This sounds great! Please share any photos and details... We'd love to see!
     
  15. Factor

    Factor Well-Known Member

    My main topic is city coins of Judaea and Decapolis, probably for the last 20 years. I started mostly because significantly lower prices compare to actual Judaean coins but quickly found how fascinating and historically important they actually are.
     
  16. Suarez

    Suarez Well-Known Member

    Nope. They're ugly.
     
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  17. thejewk

    thejewk Well-Known Member

    @Justin Lee

    5wKKrM8D73yN6xT6as9Ec7XceDR4H2.jpg
    I am going to attempt to clean it slightly because the earthen deposits are obscuring quite a lot of detail and are fairly loose. It's currently soaking .
     
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  18. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    thejewk, Good luck :) on the residue removal. I've got an Antioch provincial from the Ex McAlee collection very similar to yours. Antoninus Pius, A.D. 138-9, 26 mm, 12.47 gm, McAlee #555i.

    Ant. Pius, AD 138-9, 26 mm, 12.47 gm, MA 555i.jpg very similar to your example
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  19. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    I suppose a tiny bit of cleaning wouldn't hurt, but why risk it? IMHO, it looks just fine as is.
     
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  20. thejewk

    thejewk Well-Known Member

    Very similar to yours @Al Kowsky and will be very useful to have as reference. Thanks!

    @David Atherton Fear not, I'm taking baby step recommendations from the widely shared cleaning guide using only toothpicks and DW under magnification to see if it shifts as easily as I think it will. If it doesn't work out, I'll be leaving it as it is, and won't do damage with a sharpened toothpick.
     
  21. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    A very interesting post - like so many of you, I sort of backed into Provincials from the Imperials.

    I got off on the wrong foot with Provincials because of the generosity of an eBay seller - c. 2013 I bought a low-grade Imperial denarius and the seller, sent for free, this:

    Caracalla Stobi c. 2013 free (1).JPG

    Caracalla Æ 22
    (c. 198-217 A.D.)
    Rom. Prov. - Macedonia, Stobi

    M AVREL ANTONVS AV, laureate head right / MVNI STOB, Nike advancing left carrying wreath and palm.
    Moushmov 6553; AMNG 15v.
    (8.18 grams / 22 mm)

    It is not the loveliest Provincial I own, but it has a nice green patina and is generally not bad - especially for free - I thanked the seller profusely. However, I was under the impression that Provincials were so common and so uncollectable that they were givin' 'em away! This incorrect impression colored my estimation of what one should pay for these.

    But over the past 2 years I've found myself increasingly charmed by Provincials and also found that Provincials from Stobi are not exactly growing on trees (thanks again, eBay seller!). Here are a few recent finds:

    This is a lot of Provincials I got on eBay - the top 2 I posted elsewhere, because I was having trouble finding them - Aelia Capitolina from Elagabalus is where I am at now - any clarifications & corrections appreciated. The bottom one is, I think:

    Macrinus and Diadumenian
    (217-218 A.D.) Æ 18
    Syria, Seleucis & Pieria Antiochia ad Orontem

    [AVKMO] C MAKΡINOC C Laureate head of Macrinus r. / KAI M O ΔIA ANTΩNINOC
    Bare-headed bust, draped and cuirassed, of Diadumenian r., S C at sides.
    BMC 404-405.
    (3.26 grams / 18 mm)
    Prov Lot - 2 Aeilia Cap 1 Macrinus Ant Mar 19 (1).jpg

    Finally, this tet from Alexandria for Aurelian & Vallabathus:

    Egypt - Aurel & Vallabath tet Mar 19 (3).JPG

    Egypt Potin Tetradrachm
    Aurelian and Vaballathus
    Year 2/5 (271-272 A.D.)
    Alexandria Mint

    AK Λ ΔOM AYΡHΛIANOC CEB, bust of Aurelian r., LB r. / YABAΛΛAΘOC AΘHNOV
    AVTCΡΩ, bust of Vaballathus right. L-E across fields.
    Emmett 3914; Milne 4330.
    (9.42 grams / 18 mm)
     
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