Do you agree with my token grading?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by iPen, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    Here's an 1837 Illustrious Predecessor I recently purchased. It's an HT-33, Low-19.

    It has full cartwheel luster (it's really difficult to take pics of it to show the luster). Carbon spots are detracting from its appeal. It's toned darker with more blues than shown. Reverse is 5% off-center.

    I'd say this grade:
    AU-58 BN
    Do you agree?

    Here's a graded version for reference.

    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  3. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Very nice but I think those carbon spots will bring it down.
  4. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    I've never had any experience grading tokens, but I'd have to disagree with your estimate. Just look at the turtle's shell and tell me that you think they are similar.

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  5. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    OK I edited the grade a little lol. Maybe it's not enough of a change.
  6. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    I think you’re close but perhaps a bit high. I’m not sure if the shell represents a weak strike or circulation. Either way, still a lovely coin.
    Oldhoopster likes this.
  7. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Keep going!

  8. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    OK how about now?
  9. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    I was at 45. But that's me.
  10. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    I think that the piece has been cleaned, and that might account for the spots. Virgin metal is volnerable to such things.

    I think that this one is an AU-58 using old-time standards.

    Low 19 O.jpg Low 19 R.jpg
  11. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    I think it needs an "E"!

  12. Stevearino

    Stevearino Supporter! Supporter

    I was at 50 before clicking.

  13. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Yeah, I’m at low AU maybe high XF. Concur that it was likely cleaned, which is why it looks as it does.
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  14. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    From what I've seen from my personal submissions and observations, tokens seem to be graded more leniently than coins for some reason.

    This one got an AU-53 from ANACS, and I think mine's a little better on the reverse in terms of wear.

    This one got an AU-58 from NGC:
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  15. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Please bear in mind that your piece has been cleaned and that the grading services would not give it a straight grade. I am not saying this out of meaness. It is in the hope that you will note the issue and not over pay for a piece that has issues.

    As for the two pieces you cited, yes, I think that the grades are a bit generous.
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  16. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    Thanks for that info. How do you tell that it's been cleaned? I'm more of a silver kind of guy so it's hard for me to tell. There doesn't seem to be too strong of rounded devices, and there's a strong cartwheel luster seen in person.

    EDIT: Here's a bit of a closeup on the surface.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
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  17. Dillan

    Dillan The sky is the limit !

    When the coin has been cleaned you will notice a pattern of small scratches over the coins surface. Usually the scratches will run in the same direction .Plus cleaning will give the coin an off color to the original color of the coin. Maybe someone with more knowledge can correct me if I am wrong . Dillan
  18. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Here’s what makes me think it was cleaned. Fields are differently colored, the stains that look like something corroded on the coin and as cleaned off (especially the second E in executive), and the amount of color for a coin that’s been circulated.
    9016FD57-8884-4368-B586-EA288E681FA7.jpeg C8B6078D-9F8C-4E23-8EE9-33F2D329BC60.jpeg
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  19. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    I don't have any Mint State Hard Times tokens that have much red on them. These coins do have sort of a cartwheel luster, but it’s really more of a frosty luster that has some cartwheel characteristics. This piece is graded MS-64, brown. Remember, these pieces were not made by the U.S. Mint.

    HT 20 O.jpg HT 20 R.jpg

    To address the concept of color, here is an 1820 large cent that has a lot of original red. This piece is graded MS-65, Red & Brown. The color is there, but it has mellowed a bit as you would expect it to be on an almost 200 year old coin.

    1820 Cent O.jpg 1820 Cent R.jpg

    The color on this mostly brown 1857 large cent is peaking though in spots. This is how it should look, blended with the rest of surface of the coin. These differences are subtle and hard to explain with photos, but learning them is very important if you are going to buy more expensive copper coins. This coin has not been graded. My grade is MS-65, Brown.

    1857 Large Cent O.jpg 1857 Large Cent R.jpg
    iPen likes this.
  20. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    Thanks for those pics. Yeah there's definitely more consistency in color with your examples, and there's a more "blended" means in how the colors transition. My example is definitely more abrupt and varied in color (not that toning counts as a Details grading or anything like that). And, I guess with tokens the quality control was lower so the TPGs may add that element to their considerations when grading.

    I have my token in a Xylene bath, and may give it another acetone bath, if it improves anything at all.
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