Distinguishing Between "Condition" and "Grade."

Anything I propose will just get dismissed because it came from me, I'm not arrogant enough to think I will change anything anyway.

That said something as simple as no friction or full luster could clear up some confusion but they don't have the marketability of the current terms so there's no chance anything will replace those without the marketable aspect.

Like I mentioned previously though the whole grading system and some of the terms involved have a lot of inherent flaws that have gone on for so long they won't get changed.

 

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What actual use is third party grading? What does it add to the experience of coin collecting? Slabs, labels, stickers, are they additive to that experience?

What answers can be given that don’t revolve around coin prices?

I’ve read where ANACS originally certified coins as real, not counterfeit. I think that’s a benefit to the collector. I’m not convinced commercial grading adds anything but cost to collecting coins.

If there was no grading system to enable steady profits to investors or speculators or thieves we’d be left with a group of people who appreciate coins and enjoy collecting them and support businesses that enable collectors.

What a nightmare!!!

 

I'm not asking you to change anything. I'm asking you to tell me what you think. I don't care who it comes from - If I see a good idea, I'll admit it was a good idea.

While your extremely cynical "down with the man!" post reeks of a 1970's hippy vibe, you must realize that "grading" coins has been around for hundreds of years.

Investors, speculators, thieves, and collectors have also been around for hundreds of years. I'm really not sure what your point is.

 

This is turning out to be an extremely entertaining and insightful thread.

This also serves as an example of why, under no circumstances, will I ever collect uncirculated or mint state coins. Even with my beloved 1916-D Dime, I would not consider purchasing a coin higher than AU. (The thought of owning one in AU is a bit of a pipe dream at the present moment)

Do I enjoy learning how to grade Mint State coins? YES. To not understand how to grade Mint State coins puts any numismatist at a severe disadvantage, and, in my opinion, understanding how to grade Mint State coins is crucial to understanding and following the coin market, whether I like it or not .

 

At some point (and we may be reaching that point in the current market), collectors will begin to refuse coins with wear that are called Mint State.

Since the TPGs standards change with time - and they admit this - your coin's slab's value should be dependent on when it was graded. But your coin is still the same.

 

I am not sure what to say about this coin. I could say exactly what you usually say and that is have you seen this coin in hand, do you know for sure that it shouldn't grade a 67+. What makes you the expert?
HaHA all joking aside.

I would like @Insider input. Did you see this coin and how does it fit into ICG's standards. Seems it didn't even come close to meeting the value associated with the grade.

 

CasualAg$, posted: "If there was no grading system to enable steady profits to investors or speculators or thieves we’d be left with a group of people who appreciate coins and enjoy collecting them and support businesses that enable collectors."

"What a nightmare!!!"

It appears you were not a collector before the late 1970's when the second authentication service (INSAB) became the first authentication and grading service (TPGS). Talk about a nightmare. Folks learning their expensive treasures were worthless, over graded, junk! TPG was second only to authentication as a protection to the public. It is unfortunate that what GDJMSP wrote about their decline was true.

 

Wow! “...extremely cynical...1970’s hippy vibe...down with the man...” Am I that inconsistent? I wasn’t aware that TPGs were “the man”. But if you say so...

I realize that when a post starts with name calling and then belabors the obvious, I’m being trolled so we’ll keep it short.

My point is that “grading” is a reflection of what we already can see. The modern TPG grading only helps drive up prices. In most business situations investors and speculators drive negative behavior, is coin collecting exempt?

 

“Money changes everything.” C. Lauper

You’re correct about INSAB, I was not a collector then, and GDJMSP is right, too.

We don’t need to buy into the grading scheme. The last time I read something as convoluted as the PCGS standards quotes it started with, “Some animals are more equal than others.”

 

As they should. I would be worried if nothing had changed in the last 30 years and I would be worried if 30 years from now they're the exact same as today.

Things change, things evolve, knowledge expands, that's part of life and happens in everything. You either keep learning and evolve or get left behind.

The massive resistance to any sort of change in the hobby is not doing the hobby any favors.

The same way your generation "loosened" the standards, and the generation before you did the same and before that the same ect. Every generation has "loosened" aka changed the standards for grading that's not unique to the TPGs.

Among coin forum posters maybe, but that is just a tiny microcosm of collectors as the whole.

Except its not crap its the truth. All standards do change over time with the expansion of knowledge. We would still be living in caves hunting with sticks and rocks if they didn't.

 

As of late I’ve taken an interest in British coins and recently bought a copy of the Spink catalog. What you are describing is very similar to how the Brits grade on their side of the pond. To be considered fully uncirculated, a coin needs to grade at least a 64 by our standards. Even a 63 is defined as AU/UNC. As for early copper, it caught my eye that Spink doesn’t even publish prices for uncirculated grades, as “full mint bloom” is required for that designation which would be truly rare for an 18th century coin.

Regardless of how standards have evolved, I’m still seeing the market at work. Just look at differences in Heritage auction prices for coins within the same grade. This is especially noticeable for things like Buffalo nickels with historic diagnostics for a certain grade (e.g. full horn for VF). The TPGs aren’t applying such a rigid standard and probably shouldn’t considering it is unreasonable for weakly struck dates like 26s. But if one shows up with a full horn in a VF holder, guaranteed you will pay through the nose for it regardless of numerical grade.

I don’t really mind the standards changing and I think grade inflation may be overstated IMHO. The TPGs still weed out a lot of crap and I’d rather work with their opinions than individual dealers’ opinions which change depending on whether you are buying or selling.

 

@physics-fan3.14 is not trolling you, he is trying to expand your numismatic view

 

I need to disagree with you on this occasion:

baseball21, posted: "As they should. Says who, a bunch of disgruntled coin dealers who picked up the ball in play and moved to another court with rules of their own? I would be worried if nothing had changed in the last 30 years and I would be worried if 30 years from now they're the exact same as today. Yeah, a foot is no longer 12 inches and anywhere you hit a target is a bullseye! Get real. Things change, things evolve, knowledge expands, that's part of life and happens in everything. How true, but a STANDARD (no trace of wear) should NEVER evolve. And if the "Big Boys and their apologists wish to ignore/corrupt a standard they should at least have the honesty to remove "no trace of wear" from the "standards" they profess to use to grade MS coins! You either keep learning and evolve or get left behind. The massive resistance to any sort of change in the hobby is not doing the hobby any favors." What is not doing the hobby any favors is the "wiggle room" allowed by calling the exact same coin in the exact same condition of preservation, MS one day and AU the next. Then raising its MS grade (if it gets one again) to a higher number in the passing years.

"The same way your generation "loosened" the standards, and the generation before you did the same and before that the same ect. Every generation has "loosened" aka changed the standards for grading that's not unique to the TPGs."

Don't blame a generation of collectors on a few who had the power to change things. I think if you study the history of grading, the MS standard was not changed until the 1980"s. There were some changes in the circulated grades - the addition of the AU grade for example.

"Except its not crap its the truth. All standards do change over time with the expansion of knowledge. We would still be living in caves hunting with sticks and rocks if they didn't."

I think you have confused "standards" with inventions, methods, ingenuity, and human development (the expansion of knowledge you called it).

 

Read the link that was posted.

 

I completely agree. The exceptional pieces still generally get rewarded in the market though sadly some of them end up getting mocked by online forums while the low end pieces usually get prices that reflect that.

You're dead on with the grade inflation thing being overstated. In everything in life the past always gets romanticized and there's always the human nature of thinking that things used to be done better or that everything else has changed and not the individual being critical. Some of it is just simply more grades were added, other parts of it are just people trying to protect their territory. Regardless it's completely overblown on forums.

 

Says who a bunch of people that hate change and want to just defend their territory?

The system that was decided on many decades ago is inherently flawed and still is. It's slowly getting worked into something that makes more sense and is more fluid but it obviously cannot happen over night.

Plenty of people feel the hard line was flawed and want to see it go away. It will most likely and hopefully continue to erode as time goes forward and with any luck one day we can have a real scale where coins are based on quality and things that lost a fight to a lawn mower won't ever be graded with a higher number than pristine coins just because that one has a touch of rub.

Why not? Changes had been happening to coin grading long before anyone on this planet was born. No living generation is an exception for changes either. If your generation really didn't want the changes it wouldn't have happened and the businesses of the TPGs would have failed. Plenty of TPGs have failed because the generations of active collectors at the time rejected their product. If the customer base kept saying I won't buy anything in xyzs holder dealers wouldn't send them anything.

Even the most influential in numismatics don't turn every idea they have into a golden goose and there isn't a single one of them who haven't had failed ideas at one point.

The lack of ethics at the time without modern communication technology to expose or warn people certainly did give the TPGs a major boost for acceptance though. So yes even if you want to argue that only a couple people were responsible for that change the generation as a whole created an environment where people would accept that change.

I didn't. They are a part of it as well but plenty of things that used to be the standard changed.

 

I saw a Standing liberty quarter in MS65 that I thought looked really cloudy as if it was in a salt wash.

Here is the thing - I have seen dealers try to sell certified coins over 50% the bid price for a certain grade, saying it is an ideal specimen - and it may be. However, if you take that same coin back to sell, they will treat it like any coin in that grade. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Another standard that has changed for the better is the unacceptability of harsh cleaning. Although before my time, it is my understanding that even reputable coin publications in generations past gave tips for cleaning that would make all of us cringe today. And yes, I know that there is still room to argue about what level of cleaning should be deemed by TPGs as “market acceptable”. But at least they have put a stop to the more egregious practices such as whizzing and tooling.