Distinguishing Between "Condition" and "Grade."

Who wants to go tell PCGS that their published standards are wrong?

 

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Coins don't need to circulate to get friction/wear/rub/luster breaks ect. This is newbie 101 stuff.

Despite what some say it's happened for a long time and been much more than the TPGs.

No worries on the planchet thing we all get crossed up sometimes.

I certainly see where you're going with that and the logic of it, but that said to me I don't see how the physical state of the coin can be separated from the grade. The physical state after all is what makes the grade. We can disagree on what matters the most or the influence of this and that but at the end of the day it is the condition of the coin driving the grade

 

Putting a coin in a coin cabinet means that the coin had been put into circulation and was taken out of circulation.

But regardless, it sure ain’t “mint-state” though.

 

No it doesn't. Circulation is commerce and spending it. Being monetized is different than circulation.

 

Had to get it from the bank. That counts as commerce.

 

No you didn't have to get it from the bank. Try again

 

Exchanging money at the mint counts as commerce.

 

Not every coin ever had money exchanged for them you should know that.

Circulation in economics is the continuing usage of money for transactions. Commerce was a lazy way of me responding to you before just because I know what you're trying to do.

A single trade of money for a coin is yes commerce, but does not make it circulating currency

 

What I'd like to see is an expansion of the current grading system to include strike and other factors that can separate, say, identically graded coins from each other. I'm sure most of us, when buying or bidding on a particular coin, look at similar examples that have been sold (ie, Heritage and Great Collections auction archives). Most certainly you'll see a wide variation in prices for each coin. I first look at the most recent sales and then compare coins. Usually the best struck, best looking examples sell for the highest price; athough some with special toning command more.

 

So, naturally, a line must be drawn. Wear is a convenient line between circulated and uncirculated.

 

I'm glad you understand my opinion. Here is an example of what I mean by the difference in CONDITION and GRADE. This coin has the details of an AU 58 GRADE. It has near full mint luster, has full breast feathers on the reverse, under a 45 power binocular microscope inputted into a computer, it has very minor wear on the cheek high spot, but it has a CONDITION problem of spot on reverse rim. Even if it didn't have the reverse spot, it would still properly GRADE AU 58. What is the difference between details GRADE AU 58 and a straight GRADE AU 58? Both would be AU 58 by GRADING standards but there is a CONDITION. Thank you for your comment and position. We all learn from one another.

 

Mint state which is a grading term fits better. It's not perfect nor have I ever said it was, my whole point the entire time was the flaws in the system and terms and how they needed to evolve.

I would disagree there and certainly concede that it may be a matter of semantics on how we look at things and define terms. Technically yes both could be a 58, but I would argue that details xyz is part of the grade. I certainly understand that some people would separate details verse straight grade out with the term condition, personally I do not. I would say that if we had two coins where the first was a straight graded 58 and the other was a details 58 that the details aspect was part of the grade.

To me a coins grade incorporates everything. I don't believe in pure technical grading as I think there are short comings with that method, rather I view a grade as something that would take into account the condition for the final number. I don't have a problem with numerical details grading at all and prefer it for circulated grades, I just cannot separate condition from grade when I view one as part of the other. If we were talking about ancients I would probably have a different opinion as I do not view them as suitable for the 1-70 scale.

 

TypeCoin971793, posted: "If you want to be technical, then the term “mint-state” is itself a misnomer. There is no way to tell in what state a coin left the mint in. How can you tell which marks/marlines/wear happened at the mint and which happened in transport/storage in a treasury vault/circulation/ect? You can’t, so one should use a scale of “uncirculated” rather than “mint state.”

P L E A S E, don't be...ah,

While I'll agree there is NO WAY to determine when or where many of the things we see on coins that you mention happened, there is a way to determine if a coin is in its "original" condition less any PMD that may occur from the time it was pushed off the press bed to when you examine it.

 

TypeCoin971793, posted: "Putting a coin in a coin cabinet means that the coin had been put into circulation and was taken out of circulation. [YES IT DOES - the coin has probably circulated to get into your hand so you could put it into the cabinet] But regardless, it sure ain’t “mint-state” though."

IMO, 50% of this statement is 100% pure nonsense. Type, you are the man. IMO, you are confusing a bunch of folks below your expertise.

Go buy a modern U.S. Mint Set (coins NEVER circulated and are Mint State). Open the package and carefully place the coins in a drawer you never open in a year. In several years, remove the coins that are circulated by your definition and circulated by anyone who does not know what you did yet the coins have remained in full Mint State condition (perhaps even NT). Do you see how silly this thread can get?

Grading is personal. If a person looks at a coin - no matter its history (known or unknown) and determines it is still in an original condition that is possible when it was made, the coin is considered to be Mint State.

The concepts involved with determining the condition of preservation of a coin are extremely simple. It is all of us know-it-alls and the TPGS's that make things complicated.

 

Following this thread is better than watching my kids fighting lol

 

But my actions would then have altered the coin so that it is no longer in the same state as it left the mint in. That’s my point.

 

Wanna talk about "luster" next?

 

But I still insist 736 angels can dance on the head of a pin...

 

Silly, angels don't dance. That's sinful!

 

I completely agree.

I agree with half that statement. Crossing a line that was made to keep an AU coin from being seen as MS. Will be a constant. Wear is wear it doesn't matter if it happened in Commerce a Collectors Cabinet Drawer or for that matter packaged in a Mint Set. It still should be an AU at best. Fudging this line causes all the confusion, not the know it all's.
The so called Know it all's will do there best to keep the less studious folks from falling into the trap that "is" what Market grading is.
And, for most part those that disagree with the standards that are aloud today by the TPG's, lets not forget those in this to only make a profit. Will stick to what is the correct grade and definition for each grade there is.
Same way @BuffaloHunter remembers it.