Distinguishing Between "Condition" and "Grade."

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A coin doesn't need to circulate to get friction or wear. Your statement is completely inaccurate.

Uncircluated coins can have wear/friction just as circulated coins can have no wear/friction.

It seems what you meant to say was that a coin with any type of rub/friction/wear should be graded no higher than AU

 

No worries, And by the way I am not trolling you. If I was everyone that is disagreeing would be trolling.

It would be just as easy to adjust 50 to 59 than try to make a whole new scale
AU63? 63 is for Mint State grades. The problem is you only want to justify what the TPG's do. And not make a resolution to the problem that exists.

 

Mint state is the term for coins with no wear according to your grading style.

Circulation of coins and currency is a physical action that either occurs or does not in commerce. Wear does not mean something was necessarily spent neither does lack of it mean it never was.

Coins don't circulate in mint bags, or albums ect.

At least use proper terms if you want to be such a stickler

 

You could try actually reading what I write and not just push out the talking points but hey why do that right.

Anyway back to just ignoring the trolls unless something needs to be corrected for readers

 

jeffB, posted: "But how often can you sell an AU58 coin for more than an MS60, even though its eye appeal is far better?"

IMO, always. My favorite story for students occurred while showing a book of coins to one of the top three dealers in the US and also one of the undisputed top graders in the country - he still is, several decades after this happened.

He saw a "textbook" AU-58 1917 T-1 25c and asked "how much?" You don't want to by that one _______, it's an AU. "How much." There's rub down the leg indicated by the change of color (not frosty white). "How much."

I made a profit but he marked the coin MS-65. It had full frosty white luster and no marks. A true technically graded "gem" AU (58) by my strict collecting standards. This incident is how I learned about "Market Grading."

I plan to read this thread and post more comments later.

 

I do read what you write. The fact is that we do not agree with each other.
Grading a coin that is obviously circulated is the worst thing that the TPG's have done. It frayed the line that should be solid.

By the way this is exactly why many of us correct you. Have you ever thought of why your statements are always objected too?

 

Pickin and Grinin, posted: "Circulated is only the surface conditions. A rub a hairline, etc. Something that didn't happen in a bag or the result of the minting process."

The word "circulated" has TWO different meanings to collectors. One has no relationship to the condition of its surface. I've seen dozens of circulated coins that graded Uncirculated.

I'll bet if you start using Mint State for coins that never actually circulated or look like a coin that never circulated although they actually did, this thread would confuse fewer less knowledgeable folks than yourself! It's hard to break old habits but I've been trying this myself.

 

Pickin and Grinin, posted: "Grading a coin that is obviously circulated is the worst thing that the TPG's have done. It frayed the line that should be solid."

While I agree with this completely, unfortunately that's what happened. However, in defense of this practice, there are three ways a Mint State coin can look circulated (AU). Perhaps the TPGS wish to fudge the line so they can grade faster while increasing the number of Uncirculated coins available to sell.

Best of all...you and I don't have to buy them!!

 

I did learn, but from atricles written over the past two decades, from dealers, from grading instructors, and from experts with more knowledge and experience than both of us combined. I guess they are all wrong because you have to be right.

If you want to be technical, then the term “mint-state” is itself a misnomer. There is no way to tell in what state a coin left the mint in. How can you tell which marks/marlines/wear happened at the mint and which happened in transport/storage in a treasury vault/circulation/ect? You can’t, so one should use a scale of “uncirculated” rather than “mint state.”

 

I look at it as a grade helps describe condition, but condition does not describe grade. Ie: the CONDITION of the coin is a GRADE of AU 58, although the back looks MS and there is some rainbow toning on the obverse.

Condition is more of a verbal explanation of things not specified in the numeric GRADE.

just my 2 cents.

 

There is without a question circulation of coins. You actually just argued against yourself.

 

It’s what they do with everything, so AU/UNC is no different

So, are you saying the TPG’s bottom line is what drives grading decision?

 

I have a feeling you did not even read the words I wrote. I did not say anything remotely resembling “coins don’t circulate.” I only said that there is no way to tell exactly what state each coin left the mint, so claiming a coin is “mint-state” is a misnomer.

 

I read exactly what you wrote, and your argument of you can't tell what happened where applies far more to circulation. You don't even realize when logically your arguments are working against you.

Everything you said about mint state applies to uncirculated, the difference is circulation is an actual thing. So unless you want to change your tune and argue coins should be called no wear you argued against yourself just because I had said it like usual

 

In my case the problem isn't the terminology of MINT STATE VS CIRCULATED.
The evidence of the two reside not in bag marks dings etc. It lies in the loss of luster, rub, hairlines and actual condition of the surfaces. I have no problem with a coin grading MS that came from circ. But it has to have the qualities of a MS coin.
This fudging of the line is the most confusing because it doesn't present what MS was intended for.

 

If the coin has wear, it is not uncirculated. What do you not understand?

As for my comment, I was referring to marks on the surfaces. It seems silly that “mint-state” coins are graded (mainly, I know luster and eye appeal are factors) on the marks on the surfaces, regardless of where the marks were accrued, so they are no longer “mint-state.” For that reason, “mint-state” is a misnomer.

Did I say otherwise? Nope. Stop putting words I did not say into my mouth.

 

I had it in my head that it was just the polished dies - thanks for the clarification.

Boy, my hiatus away from the hobby for a few years saw some weird changes come through I guess. I didn't know that the TPG's had changed their grading so profoundly. How recently did this take place?

 

Like coin GRADING, definitions are subjective to the person making them. To me, CONDITION of a coin is entirely different from GRADING a coin. CONDITION to me means the physical state of the coin. Does it have a bag mark, does it have two or more bag marks, does it have a rim nick, does it have two or more rim nicks, is it corroded, was it run over by a truck or a car and has the scratches to prove it, does it have a hole in it, does it have two or more holes in it, was it made into a ring, and a host of other defects done to the coin. GRADING to me is it's state of PRESERVATION. GRADING standards are subjective. But state of preservation is reliable if everyone followed a standard. Using the numerical standard, MS70 is perfect as sharply struck with centered planchet, uniform pressure to bring up all details, not a mark on it. This coin would have been put away with gloved hands into an inert container and never been contaminated with anything. On the other hand an MS60 state of preservation, still uncirculated but it exited the coining press and fell into a bin with other coins falling onto it and imparting reeded edge scratches or marks all over the coin, Its raised parts, its field any area that could be struck by another coin. When does CONDITION take over to DE-GRADE a coin. Any coin from MS 69 on down to Poor 1 has a CONDITION problem affecting its GRADE. So to me CONDITION and GRADE are two separate aspects of EYE APPEAL. Knowledgeable coin collectors buy the book before you buy the coin and buy the coin not the holder. This is just my opinion on separate aspects of CONDITION versus GRADE.