Distinguishing Between "Condition" and "Grade."

Isn’t that what CAC was for?

 

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You nailed it, Doug! That was my main gripe. Go ahead and change the standard, but you darn well better document it and let everyone know what and why.

 

Did you just ask Jason to buy a grading book? That’s funny

...here’s one I can recommend:

 

Aside from the liability mentioned, grading in general is just not suited for anything more than broad guidelines. There are too many things that could never be finely described in a description because of subjective aspects and even "purely technical" systems do contain subjectivity.

Broad definitions or general guidelines is about the best that can really be done with grading and generalities of what to look for

Just imagine the nightmare of people in court saying they stated specifically xyz and courts trying to deal with luster, focal areas, hit mark severity ect. It would be a nightmare all around

 

So basically the standards have changed.

The changes just haven't been published because the TPGs who are changing the standards have a vested interest in keeping them private. While that is very unfortunate for collectors that the standards are not made public, acting like the old standards are still current is not a realistic approach.

The best you can do is look at current TPG market grading as a whole to understand how the standards have changed.

Clearly coins with high point wear can now be graded as high as 62. In order to get an AU grade, it's all about luster breaks in the fields. Does it mean a 62 with bag marks and no high point wear is a nicer coin than a 62 with high point wear and clean fields? No. It's showing equivalency between different minor surface impairments (meaning - wear is not special!).

This approach to wear being treated as any other surface impairment can be taken further and perhaps will with future revisions of the grading standards.

 

Indeed, and that's why the adage "buy the coin, not the holder" is imperative. I've spent MS money on an AU coin just because I wanted it in my collection.

 

The condition of an ungraded coin falls between the lettered grades, but the condition of a graded coin falls within the numeric grades. The whole purpose of numeric grading is to eliminate bias and error in lettered grading, and it works. Grading eliminates a great deal of confusion especially in the upper end grades. Grading will always be subjective to a wide range of opinions, but for the most part, numerical grading is the best method in my opinion, especially when it comes to very expensive coins.

 

No, No, No!!! Grade is an assessment of condition you cant have a V.F, 65.

 

I don’t see how lettered grading has more “bias and error.” Calling a coin VG or choice VF or EF is the same as calling a coin an 8, 30 or 40. The introduction of numbers inherently creates more error. How many times do we have a GTG and have an even split between VF-30 and 35? How many times do certified coins that look like 30’s get into 35 holders and vice-versa? How about call them all Choice VF so you don’t have to worry about the fuzzy delineation?

Really? 11 tiers (or now, 21 tiers) eliminates confusion? What about the good old days of UNC, Choice UNC, Gem UNC, and Choice Gem UNC, and Superb Gem UNC? Only 5 tiers, and you can easily define the criteria needed for each tier.

 

11 Numerical GRADES of Uncirculated but only MS-70 is perfect. Like I said in previous posts, 1 thru 69 should all be DETAILS GRADE and the CONDITION mentioned that puts it under a Perfect MS-70.
Does everyone on this thread agree with Buy the Coin and not the HOLDER? Does everyone on this thread agree with BUY the Book before you Buy the coin?
Does everyone on this Thread agree with BUY a GRADING GUIDE Book or two. I would suggest to start out with an old ANA Grading Guide Book and Buy a second or many and study them all. I even have Jason Poe's book. Read and study, you won't get as confused as the TPG's who have changed their standards over the years. BUY a coin based on your knowledge and its EYE Appeal.
There is a difference between numerical GRADE and CONDITION. Go to page 4 of this thread and on the top of the page right click on the MS-62 Morgan Dollar. Click to open in a new tab. When that page opens, click anywhere on the coin to expand it. Now go to my response and Right click on the Photo of my coin. Again click to open in a new tab. Do this for both obverse and reverse. Then click anywhere on the coin to expand the coin to see it better. PCGS MS-62 Morgan has more obverse marks and more reverse marks than my AU-58 Details coin. Mine has a CONDITION of spot on rim. But PCGS coin has more distracting marks on the obverse and 5 or more black spots on the reverse. Was SEGS too strict on my coin? Did PCGS slide contamination on their coin? This is where EYE APPEAL comes in and knowledge of GRADING and knowledge of CONDITION issues.
Does everyone on this thread agree that SEGS has the best, strongest holder for protecting a coin? My opinion is all coins from 1 to 69 should be Details GRADED identifying their CONDITION Problem. Wait till the BIG TPG's go to ++ or triple AAA. I look forward to the day there is a computer program that will GRADE and CONDITION a coin looking through its own microscopic eye with Robots then placing the coin in an unbreakable holder with description of Details GRADE and CONDITION Issue. Only one GRADE would have no CONDITION Issue and be a perfect MS-70. Then there will be only ONE Standard and no need for subjective, suggestive GRADING TPG services.

 

Jaelus, posted: "Did you actually look? It's in Webster's. Look at definition 4.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deprecate.

GOT ME!!

I looked in two dictionaries ONE even an old Webster's and on line and "your definition" was no where to be found. My mistake.

However, your research helps make my case about the "corruption of the Mint State grade! The "standard and old" definition has been "DEPRECIATED." So now, the dictionary needed to add a modern definition to the word but in the #4 (least important) position. Heck, the way things are going in ten years there will be probably be a #5 and #6 as the language "evolves." Unfortunately, #5 or #6 will probably not be in your older dictionary or online either.

 

Bob Evancho, posted: "Finally your post is about distinguishing between CONDITION and GRADE. CONDITION as a descriptor and GRADE as the number indicating wear. MS-70 is the only UNCIRCULATED GRADE without a condition or descriptor.

Anything from 1 to 69 should be a DETAILS GRADE or DESCRIPTOR GRADE. With 11 different GRADES of an uncirculated coin and one only being a true perfect UNCIRCULATED at MS-70, ...

This reads like a description to me.

I'm on a wacky hotel computer that keeps logging me out so that's all folks

 

Well, there's your problem: deprecated and depreciated are entirely different words, with entirely different meanings.

 

Yeah, I should never use a word that even hints at an absolute when I'm discussing English. Oops, I did it again.

 

I bought an 83d nickel from pcgs and it's graded 65 which I think is way to high and I have cpl 1960 nickels I think in way better condition

 

Why would you pay 65 money for a coin you think is way over graded?

 

I paid 4 bucks for it off ebay that came from pcgs I just wanted to see how grading was determined and I disagree with this one I wouldn't of even had it graded lol