Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Disecting a Denomiation the 12th century Byzantine tetarteron
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="BenSi, post: 4545868, member: 95174"]<b>Imitations</b> In the 12th century we know the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tetarteron" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tetarteron" rel="nofollow">tetarteron</a> was the most used and most important coinage of the Greek <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=part" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=part" rel="nofollow">part</a> of the empire. When the empire fell to the Latins and Venetians the coin did not disappear, large quantities of the most basic issues of Alexius and Manuel were found in <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" rel="nofollow">hoards</a> were imitated well into to the 13th century. They are normally identified due to lower <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1993" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1993" rel="nofollow">weights</a> and crude imagery. These coins were known but not seriously examined until this century by a convincing paper by Pagona Papadopoulou. This find may very well skew any <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" rel="nofollow">weight</a> calculations of the Dumbarton Oakes <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" rel="nofollow">collection</a> and other museums by unknowingly including the imitations in their <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" rel="nofollow">collections</a>.</p><p> </p><p>Imitation tetartera can be very difficult or very easy to identify, my experience has not found a common ground on imitations, in general the imitations were of the easiest of coins to replicate and coins that the population were familiar with because they were <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=still" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=still" rel="nofollow">still</a> in circulation</p><p>. </p><p><a href="https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6572" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6572" rel="nofollow">https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6572</a></p><p><br /></p><p><b>How Many <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1672" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1672" rel="nofollow">Denominations</a> did tetartera represent</b>? Imitation coins hampers the most basic questions of tetartera, what was the goal <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" rel="nofollow">weight</a>? Around 3.75.gm seems most probable on <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=average" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=average" rel="nofollow">average</a> <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1993" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1993" rel="nofollow">weights</a> based on original archaeological finds. This would include coins that never would have been considered collectable condition giving us a better picture of the circulation <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1993" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1993" rel="nofollow">weights</a>. </p><p> Perhaps their was no exact goal <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" rel="nofollow">weight</a>, the exact metal amount was provided but the goal was to create lets say 50 coins, and the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Mint%20Marks" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Mint%20Marks" rel="nofollow">mint</a> produced that 50 coins of mixed <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1993" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1993" rel="nofollow">weights</a>. It would make my next statement about <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1672" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1672" rel="nofollow">denominations</a> meaningless and would fall to a popular theory of involuntary value, a coin based on the fact it was a <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination" rel="nofollow">denomination</a> and not an actual value of metal. If this is true then you totally erase the need for a half tetartera, it becomes a myth and not a <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination" rel="nofollow">denomination</a> especially since the same <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination" rel="nofollow">denomination</a> was created in several sizes. If all coins are created at the same value regardless of <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" rel="nofollow">weight</a> or substance, we have no way to determine the lesser values. </p><p>I do not agree with involuntary value, it goes against human instinct and intellect that a heavier coin is worth the same as a much lighter one. A school child would understand the difference. However this really becomes a problem during the reign of Alexius and <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=940" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=940" rel="nofollow">John II</a>, the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" rel="nofollow">weight</a> variations on coins become considerable to the extent two coin catalogs cannot agree if the same coin at 1gm or a coin at 5.5gm are the same <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination" rel="nofollow">denomination</a>, a whole or half <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tetarteron" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tetarteron" rel="nofollow">tetarteron</a> . During the rule of Alexius the rush to get the new coinage out is noticeable in the coins themselves, <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1776" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1776" rel="nofollow">overstruck</a> tetartera on partial <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=anonymous%20follis" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=anonymous%20follis" rel="nofollow">anonymous follis</a> issues is just as common as the ones that were not. The haste of creating the coins might have made <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" rel="nofollow">weight</a> guidelines meaningless. </p><p><br /></p><p><b>I think the real answer here is if we look at the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tetarteron" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tetarteron" rel="nofollow">tetarteron</a> not as a coin that lasted 100 years but a coin that evolved during its existence</b>. During the reigns of Alexius and <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=940" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=940" rel="nofollow">John II</a> the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1972" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1972" rel="nofollow">Thessalonica</a> issues coins have huge <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" rel="nofollow">weight</a> variations however are the same <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=type" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=type" rel="nofollow">type</a> of coins this made value for the consumer and vendor difficult to determine. Then we enter the reign of Manuel, the coin becomes several <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1672" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1672" rel="nofollow">denominations</a> determined by the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" rel="nofollow">weight</a> of the coin and the die size of the coin. The same coin, a coin with the same Imagery was issues in three different sizes , to dispel the argument these coins evolved because of devaluation does not <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=work" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=work" rel="nofollow">work</a> because I do have one error and have seen several others with two dies sizes 15mm and 12mm showing they were minted at the same time. Why use both dies at the same time. If inflation was to blame, why would Andronicus and Isaac II follow in Manuel’s footsteps and produce coins in three different sizes as well. Did inflation end at each Emperors reign. Of course not. </p><p>[ATTACH=full]1125389[/ATTACH] </p><p><br /></p><p><u>Regardless of this <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=writing" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=writing" rel="nofollow">writing</a> my <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" rel="nofollow">collection</a> of 20 years and its observations do not prove any major new finds.</u> The theory of the die sizes originally introduced by CLBC might have sent us in the right direction in regards dividing the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination" rel="nofollow">denomination</a> but I do not believe it is proven <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=nor" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=nor" rel="nofollow">nor</a> do I think I can prove it. In order to accomplish this, large <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" rel="nofollow">collections</a> would need to be reexamined and documented. I believe we will gain more knowledge about the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination" rel="nofollow">denomination</a> as more documents are translated and the research of <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=numismatist" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=numismatist" rel="nofollow">numismatist</a>’s is brought to light. I favor the works of several working on coins in the 12th century, Julian <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=baker" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=baker" rel="nofollow">Baker</a> has been bringing more information regarding the coinage of the time but Pagona Papadopoulou seems more focused in the time period and has shown great interest in the small <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1672" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1672" rel="nofollow">denominations</a>. You can find several excellent papers by both authors on sites such as acadamia.com </p><p><br /></p><p>Many Thanks to <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/" rel="nofollow">Forum</a> <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=ancient%20coins" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=ancient%20coins" rel="nofollow">Ancient coins</a>, the original posting of myself and many other collectors still exist. It is fun to follow the original posts , the knowledge gained, at its origins, the mistakes we made, and the Eureka moments. ( We made more mistakes than Eureka moments.)</p><p> </p><p>I stopped updating my original <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=album" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=album" rel="nofollow">album</a> back in 2006, I never erased it because of the comments made by many friends now gone.</p><p><br /></p><p> <a href="https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=26" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=26" rel="nofollow">https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=26</a></p><p><br /></p><p>And this is my current <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" rel="nofollow">collection</a> now 2020, it is night and day and my photography improved greatly.</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633" rel="nofollow">https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633</a></p><p><br /></p><p>Each coin in the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" rel="nofollow">collection</a> has the information provided by Dumbarton Oakes <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=18" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=18" rel="nofollow">catalog</a>, the number of each particular issue in their <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872" rel="nofollow">collection</a> and the size and <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight" rel="nofollow">weight</a> ranges of those coins. </p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><b>I <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1840" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1840" rel="nofollow">hope</a> this post helps some new collectors and gives some new ideas to old collectors so we can solve the riddles of a coin that dominated 12th century <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=65" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=65" rel="nofollow">Greece</a></b>.</p><p style="text-align: right"><img src="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/Themes/classic/images/icons/modify_inline.gif" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p>[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="BenSi, post: 4545868, member: 95174"][B]Imitations[/B] In the 12th century we know the [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tetarteron']tetarteron[/URL] was the most used and most important coinage of the Greek [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=part']part[/URL] of the empire. When the empire fell to the Latins and Venetians the coin did not disappear, large quantities of the most basic issues of Alexius and Manuel were found in [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872']hoards[/URL] were imitated well into to the 13th century. They are normally identified due to lower [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1993']weights[/URL] and crude imagery. These coins were known but not seriously examined until this century by a convincing paper by Pagona Papadopoulou. This find may very well skew any [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight']weight[/URL] calculations of the Dumbarton Oakes [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872']collection[/URL] and other museums by unknowingly including the imitations in their [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872']collections[/URL]. Imitation tetartera can be very difficult or very easy to identify, my experience has not found a common ground on imitations, in general the imitations were of the easiest of coins to replicate and coins that the population were familiar with because they were [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=still']still[/URL] in circulation . [URL]https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6572[/URL] [B]How Many [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1672']Denominations[/URL] did tetartera represent[/B]? Imitation coins hampers the most basic questions of tetartera, what was the goal [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight']weight[/URL]? Around 3.75.gm seems most probable on [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=average']average[/URL] [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1993']weights[/URL] based on original archaeological finds. This would include coins that never would have been considered collectable condition giving us a better picture of the circulation [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1993']weights[/URL]. Perhaps their was no exact goal [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight']weight[/URL], the exact metal amount was provided but the goal was to create lets say 50 coins, and the [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Mint%20Marks']mint[/URL] produced that 50 coins of mixed [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1993']weights[/URL]. It would make my next statement about [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1672']denominations[/URL] meaningless and would fall to a popular theory of involuntary value, a coin based on the fact it was a [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination']denomination[/URL] and not an actual value of metal. If this is true then you totally erase the need for a half tetartera, it becomes a myth and not a [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination']denomination[/URL] especially since the same [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination']denomination[/URL] was created in several sizes. If all coins are created at the same value regardless of [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight']weight[/URL] or substance, we have no way to determine the lesser values. I do not agree with involuntary value, it goes against human instinct and intellect that a heavier coin is worth the same as a much lighter one. A school child would understand the difference. However this really becomes a problem during the reign of Alexius and [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=940']John II[/URL], the [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight']weight[/URL] variations on coins become considerable to the extent two coin catalogs cannot agree if the same coin at 1gm or a coin at 5.5gm are the same [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination']denomination[/URL], a whole or half [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tetarteron']tetarteron[/URL] . During the rule of Alexius the rush to get the new coinage out is noticeable in the coins themselves, [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1776']overstruck[/URL] tetartera on partial [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=anonymous%20follis']anonymous follis[/URL] issues is just as common as the ones that were not. The haste of creating the coins might have made [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight']weight[/URL] guidelines meaningless. [B]I think the real answer here is if we look at the [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tetarteron']tetarteron[/URL] not as a coin that lasted 100 years but a coin that evolved during its existence[/B]. During the reigns of Alexius and [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=940']John II[/URL] the [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1972']Thessalonica[/URL] issues coins have huge [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight']weight[/URL] variations however are the same [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=type']type[/URL] of coins this made value for the consumer and vendor difficult to determine. Then we enter the reign of Manuel, the coin becomes several [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1672']denominations[/URL] determined by the [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight']weight[/URL] of the coin and the die size of the coin. The same coin, a coin with the same Imagery was issues in three different sizes , to dispel the argument these coins evolved because of devaluation does not [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=work']work[/URL] because I do have one error and have seen several others with two dies sizes 15mm and 12mm showing they were minted at the same time. Why use both dies at the same time. If inflation was to blame, why would Andronicus and Isaac II follow in Manuel’s footsteps and produce coins in three different sizes as well. Did inflation end at each Emperors reign. Of course not. [ATTACH=full]1125389[/ATTACH] [U]Regardless of this [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=writing']writing[/URL] my [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872']collection[/URL] of 20 years and its observations do not prove any major new finds.[/U] The theory of the die sizes originally introduced by CLBC might have sent us in the right direction in regards dividing the [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination']denomination[/URL] but I do not believe it is proven [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=nor']nor[/URL] do I think I can prove it. In order to accomplish this, large [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872']collections[/URL] would need to be reexamined and documented. I believe we will gain more knowledge about the [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=denomination']denomination[/URL] as more documents are translated and the research of [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=numismatist']numismatist[/URL]’s is brought to light. I favor the works of several working on coins in the 12th century, Julian [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=baker']Baker[/URL] has been bringing more information regarding the coinage of the time but Pagona Papadopoulou seems more focused in the time period and has shown great interest in the small [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1672']denominations[/URL]. You can find several excellent papers by both authors on sites such as acadamia.com Many Thanks to [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/']Forum[/URL] [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=ancient%20coins']Ancient coins[/URL], the original posting of myself and many other collectors still exist. It is fun to follow the original posts , the knowledge gained, at its origins, the mistakes we made, and the Eureka moments. ( We made more mistakes than Eureka moments.) I stopped updating my original [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=album']album[/URL] back in 2006, I never erased it because of the comments made by many friends now gone. [URL]https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=26[/URL] And this is my current [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872']collection[/URL] now 2020, it is night and day and my photography improved greatly. [URL]https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633[/URL] Each coin in the [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872']collection[/URL] has the information provided by Dumbarton Oakes [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=18']catalog[/URL], the number of each particular issue in their [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&pos=0&open=872']collection[/URL] and the size and [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=weight']weight[/URL] ranges of those coins. [B]I [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1840']hope[/URL] this post helps some new collectors and gives some new ideas to old collectors so we can solve the riddles of a coin that dominated 12th century [URL='http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=65']Greece[/URL][/B]. [RIGHT][IMG]http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/Themes/classic/images/icons/modify_inline.gif[/IMG][/RIGHT][/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Disecting a Denomiation the 12th century Byzantine tetarteron
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...