Discussion Topic- Why are Carr "Fantasy Overstrikes" not considered Counterfeits?

Just joking,




When I got to his table, last weekend he only had a few coins left.
The guy is a wealth of knowledge. Have any of you ever talked with him?

 

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A lot of discussion of this one in one of my groups. Slabbed as an "overstrike" by ICG.

 

Doubled my post for some reason...

 

Are you sure that isn't photo shopped?
Hey @Insider can you check the cert?
What is the policy you have concerning DCarr fantasy issues?

 

There is a member of ICG in my Group who discussed it in responses...

 

And..... Lol
This is the only social group I am part of.
I don't do FB IG or twit.

 

ICG responded already. Yes, we do Mr. Carr's products and now PCGS has followed the lead of ICG and other TPGS by slabbing them also.

The big two TPGS's like to test the waters first. So they both were late to the party with Token & Medal authentication/grading; Error Coin authentication/grading; Ancient Coin authentication/grading; "detail" grading rather than keeping the money for "body bags;" universal attribution (almost there ); and one day I'll bet they will also have "educational holders" for C/f's.

I guess if you charge more money, folks will think you are the best TPGS.

PS IMO, many of Mr. Carr's issues (under my scope) are as good quality as the US Mint.

 

I was wondering why they aren't labeled as a DCarr.
The image that Jack posted is a little confusing.

ANACS has been labeling them for years.
It eliminates any confusion the buyer might have.

I was running out should have asked @Jack D. Young what ICG said?

 

Pickin and Grinin, posted: "I was wondering why they aren't labeled as a DCarr.
The image that Jack posted is a little confusing."

That's probably an older slab. Ever since I joined ICG, we put "Daniel Carr Issue" on the label.

Pickin and Grinin, asked: "...what ICG said?

This is a draft I wrote. I don't know what the final post looked like and I really don't care. IMO, the OP's post was just another attempted bash on ICG by some who does not understand the meaning of "overstrike."


Skip Fazzari <skip@icgcoin.com>
1:13 PM (1 hour ago)




"ICG, one of the four major TPGS, provides a fast, inexpensive service for collectors of many uncommon numismatic issues. IMHO this discussion comes down to this:

It appears a poster, with a limited knowledge of what an “overstrike” actually is, does not like the description on the label of our slab containing a fantasy coin. Daniel Carr tokens are popular collectables. They are bought and sold openly – often selling out an entire new issue in a short period of time. Everyone posting an opinion in this discussion should know there are two “camps” regarding his pieces with original designs (similar to the PCGS Anniversary Commemoratives) and his fantasy overstrikes produced using previously struck genuine coins as planchets. Many love Carr’s products which IMO are comparable to U.S. Mint issues such as the recent 2021 HR Peace dollar. Others, some posting here, believe Carr’s products leave a black mark on our hobby/business. Some believe they will be deceptively marketed as Mint issues that might fool a collector. This fear should not be applied to ICG exclusively. It is my understanding that following the lead of ICG and others, PCGS now encapsulates Mr. Carr’s products too! I should think that the issuance of fantasy Proof “49er Horseman $10 gold by PCGS, or slabs with crickets, and coins struck on nails might make a better subject for a discussion claiming to protect collectors..."

Images were also posted in the discussion.

 

Mr. Young is the OP.

Your opinion is silly. I am certain if the OP wanted to bash, he could do so with erudite aplomb, and there would be no need to assume an opinion that his position could be misconstrued as attempt, in lieu of fact, and certainly there would be no doubt that the OP does not understand the meaning of overstrike.

I am annoying, and readily admit it. However, I am a mere blade of grass compared to your level of achievement in that field of grass endeavor you have accomplished.

Fear? Bless Your Heart.

 

I meant to post about this when I first read it, but I am old, and time passes. I am reminded of it now because of Insider post.

My following comment is not with malice or support or non-support of the Carr pieces:

He was asked many times to produce any document from any government agency that states the government...again, any branch or agency or employee.... agrees nothing is wrong with what Carr is doing.

I do not know of any such document ever being produced. I do not know of any adjudication, via Justice Dept. or Congress or the Executive Branch, that clearly establishes such an agreement by the government.

There is a multi-page thread about the subject on NGC. There is a multipage thread about the subject on CU.

I agree to disagree that the government has agreed to anything, until legal adjudication by the government has occurred, and I can read the Decision.

Other than that, and until there is an adjudication that declares an illegal action on the part of Carr, if any person or entity that can benefit from the pieces economically...including Carr.... I support the capitalist endeavor to do so without any hesitation.

 

Wow, quite a response to an OP who stated he was concerned about what he considered a highly misleading pitch on TV for this item. I saw no intent to "bash" ICG and quite honestly I myself have been a real proponent of that company, so all I can think is WTF...

 

My boss asked me to draft a reply to a discussion on your Facebook Page. I was unaware that TV merchandising (which I consider to be a source for coins that SHOULD BE AVOIDED) was the subject! The OP's post was considered a bash of our company for slabbing "Non-Coins" and "Fantasy Coins" that could fool collectors. The boss wanted posters in the discussion to understand that several TPGS's do exactly the same thing. BTW, I was told later that as soon as similar PCGS practices were identified, the "chatter" was toned down.

I don't know if PCGS is used by telemarketers or TV hacks but the other three TPGS are well represented. At one time I worked for a SAH supplier and what goes on the shows does not reflect well on numismatics.

 

The "OP" never stated that; I assume you did NOT see the entire string when you responded here. I was not the "OP" in that discussion as some here may have thought due to your response, just the OP of this one on Carr's stuff.

 

ANACS does all of his stuff, PCGS does some of his stuff. They'll do all of his original stuff, but unless theyve made a change they do a very limited number of the overstrikes. A couple of the overstrikes have made it into reference books they recognize so they started doing those since they would say they'll do anything in the book, but most of them havent made it into any book.

I know NGC does some of his stuff but I have no idea what their official stance is on what they will and will not do. It took a lot of times and nagging by collectors including some very well known collectors to get PCGS to start doing his stuff (particularly the overstrikes in the reference books) and as far as I know that effort hasnt been put in with NGC.

You'll see them occasionally, but for the big show you see A LOT more ANACS and NGC. I flip it on every now and then but it got pretty boring a couple years ago and it seems like almost everything is some form of ASE or Morgan coin/series/set they're offering. It does seem like you are seeing more PCGS stuff though as for a while you never really saw any several years ago

 

Wow! I see how someone not involved could think our comments were about you!

I should have been clear in the beginning. I was told that someone on Jack Young's Facebook page wrote something derogatory about the company. The first words out of my mouth were "Jack Young? He's a good guy. He's the counterfeit detector." When I was asked to write a draft, I aske to see the post. As I wrote, I saw no mention of TV on the pages I was given so I guess what I saw may have started after the beginning of the discussion. Our office manager had already commented on your "page" but the boss wanted folks to know that ICG is not the bad guy.

 

Biting my lip and not responding any further...

 

Everybody take a deep breath and relax. There are a lot of good people in this thread, but this topic is a holy cause for some people, and some people say things that they might have said differently upon reflection. Peace, brothers and sisters.

 

If that image above was posted on Jack's facebook, I never was shown it. Furthermore, I see this is about the vendor's description and not the TPGS! Nevertheless, I stand behind my comments EXCEPT: I trust Jack so I'm beginning to think that no one in the discussion actually attacked ICG.