Discussion on a 1959 DDO FS-101......

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by John Burgess, Oct 29, 2020.

  1. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    Ok, I was on another forum, I like to think of it as the kiddie table, but pretty much got shut down on a discussion over this when it could have been really special conversation on doubled die varieties, die stages, grading, grading standards. The kiddie table wasn't having it. hahaha so I bring it here.
    Below is the coin to discuss. What I will say is this is NGC graded, and it's top pop 1 of 6 from NGC, and PCGS has graded 2 as MS66, none higher so top pop is 8. Research this a little, look into it, then we can give opinions and discuss why this is a MS66, if it's deserving of the grade at all, or if it should be much lower than MS66 and why. and finally the website asking price for it...... high, low, what do you think.

    I found it much more interesting than the other participants at the kiddie table, who got distracted and stubborn easily and walked away set in their beliefs of what they "know", hopefully that doesn't happen here. :)

    AND IF, you know some things, kind of an expert maybe, let the less knowledgeable kick this around a while before chiming in. It's how people learn and figure things out.
    Thank you.

    take a look:

    https://www.davidlawrence.com/product/2068636/

    and for those that don't like links or clicking things ,the below is for you.
    I hope is enough for you to participate also:

    12334.PNG

    Capture432.PNG
    Capture1211.PNG

    Capture1212.PNG
    Thanks for looking and hopefully chiming in and getting to the bottom of this! LOL
     
    TonkawaBill and Danomite like this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    As a complete novice (only inherited this collection in December 2019), I don't comprehend how a coin with the amount of wear on the hair, the deep gouges and scratches on the head and overall condition can even achieve an MS designation. Can't wait for more responses to your post, should be a great learning tool for someone like me
     
  4. tommyc03

    tommyc03 Senior Member

    Well John, I will never claim to be an expert. I'm not sure about how it got it's high grade. There is obviously a lot on the obverse, nicks, spotting, die polishing, making it a later stage coin. The reverse has deterioration at the "CE" in Cent. I've never seen this particular doubled die so I really do not know what they were thinking as far as the grade goes.
     
  5. Inspector43

    Inspector43 Celebrating 75 Years Active Collecting Supporter

    Where is the doubling?
     
  6. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    Doubling is strongest in the 59 of "1959", it's also present in the 19, and the L in liberty has a folded over appearance to it where the vertical of the L meets the horizontal foot otherwise it's slightly fatter letters as far as it appears.

    its very subtle, especially at this die stage, I needed to check the various sites for examples to find it myself and say "ohhh yeah, I see it now!"
    but it is what it is, it's certified, you can check that slab number, I did. LOL.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
    TonkawaBill and tommyc03 like this.
  7. tommyc03

    tommyc03 Senior Member

    @expat I think this is an MS coin but likely most, if not all of the damage occurred in the ballistic bags these were in and again when they were rolled. The spotting may have occurred after years of being in a paper roll.
     
    TonkawaBill likes this.
  8. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    I don't see it either . Is it me ?
     
    TonkawaBill and Mike Davis like this.
  9. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    I am not an expert myself either, I've just had an extra day puzzling over this coin and researching it.
     
    TonkawaBill and tommyc03 like this.
  10. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    It's also in the motto. Look real closely.

    What class is this? I ask that because the distortion in the first 9 is suggestive of Class 6 doubling.
     
    TonkawaBill and John Burgess like this.
  11. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    Good question. and guess you were close. It's a Class 2.
     
    TonkawaBill and eddiespin like this.
  12. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    This is why I 90% ignore "errors" of the doubled die variety.
     
    TonkawaBill and Mountain Man like this.
  13. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    The 6 and 2 are very close, that's right.
     
    TonkawaBill likes this.
  14. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    yes in a way very similar, the class 2 doubling goes outward towards the rim, the class 6 doubling goes inward towards the center in a lot of cases, though it normally looks like "fat" letters or numbers.

    Single squeeze hubbing got rid of the class 2, class 6 still happens with single squeeze, I don't know if they ever settled on how the class 6 exactly happens.

    The theory for class 2 is that a die was impressed with a hub, the hub was annealed and then a 2nd impression is made on the die. During annealing the temperature slightly changes the diameter of the hub (doesn't always happen, but it happens according to the mint especially how many times they used a hub to make a die and how many times they re-anneal it), so the second impression is a bit closer to the rim than the first because the hub expanded.

    Something like that. it's gone now with the single squeeze hubbing, just one impression nowadays.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
    TonkawaBill likes this.
  15. Danomite

    Danomite What do you say uh-huh

    This doesn’t look like a MS 66 and it’s not a $400.00 coin. The bag marks and toning should never give this coin a 66RD grade. JMHO. This coin is probably stage D, by the pics, and has lots of bag marks. It is a rare variety but if I had this particular example, I wouldn’t have it graded..... I’m not an expert FWIW.
     
  16. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    Did you take a look at the variety and a few examples, Familiarize yourself with it and see Stage ABCD or just guessing it's a stage D with a lot of bag marks?

    Not saying you are right or wrong, just curious how you came to this conclusion.

    As far as red designation, you don't think it's at least 95% red or more?

    Also I'm not saying it's worth $400 or the grade is correct, and I'm not saying it's wrong either. The coin is clearly a dog at first impression so why is it not only mint state, but a top population coin to boot? Do you believe NGC can make such a huge error in judgement or are there things to be learned from it's example?
    Could all of this happen to it since it's been slabbed maybe? I'll tell you that's a wrong answer for sure :D

    It's a good preliminary evaluation. It's not a stunner appearancewise at all. First thought is absolutely "yuck, why? are they crazy?"

    Oh and one more thing to add, it's not the pictures or a trick of light angling or filters either. I could have done that to make it much harder and make it look a lot better these are similar pictures to the NGC Cert look up. It's about as accurate to appearance as it can get without seeing it in person.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
    TonkawaBill and SensibleSal66 like this.
  17. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    So far what is correct:
    It is a Class 2 doubled die.
    It is a late die stage.

    And a hint question to ponder that's now come up more than once:
    If this is late die stage, what do the early and middle die stages look like and do die stages affect grading? In what instances does it affect grade and by how much?
     
    TonkawaBill likes this.
  18. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    What looks like contact, is not contact marks. These planchets were extremely rough. In many instances, and especially with the early memorial reverse cents this roughness was not struck out.

    As far as the variety goes, I would expect this to sell at the price to a variety collector, because of the die stage.

    Here are some views from VV. With stage A B C.
    No die stage does not affect "Market" grading, Although before market grading, most would not consider this a gem because of the striking pressure. The details are not full. But, although not present in the photos, I would expect this coin to be extremely lustrous.
    I trust NGC on Lincolns and Buffalos before PCGS. Personally the planchet roughness is distracting, limiting it to gem, for the issue.

    I thoroughly agree that this is at least a stage D. Might even be later.
     
    TonkawaBill and John Burgess like this.
  19. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    Thank you Pickin and Grinin. The in slab picture shows more luster than the blow up obverse and reverse do, you are correct, I believe it's much more lustrous than the blow ups let on to also or the picture of it in the slab, I don't think that even shows all of the luster that you would see in hand. Those pictures are from the seller, It's David Lawrence,I have to believe they are showing the coin in the most accurate manner though.

    What's wrong with the striking pressure though? All major details, Outlines, Lettering, Numbers, and Rims are pretty well sharp, sharper than a lot of other coins I've seen, it's when we get to the fine details there come the weakness, but the strike itself seems apparently pretty strong to me.
     
    TonkawaBill likes this.
  20. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    And, as far as pictures, I will add the NGC certification lookup pictures for another point of view. I didn't like them because I felt they were too dark and you couldn't really see the surfaces and it was hiding things, but these pictures might help, a different viewpoint.
    Capture669.PNG Capture668.PNG Capture666.PNG Capture667.PNG
     
  21. Inspector43

    Inspector43 Celebrating 75 Years Active Collecting Supporter

    To me, Mint State should be judged against the Design Acceptance Criteria and what the Mint considers a typical output. Not what collectors think it should be or would like it to be. IMO
     
    TonkawaBill and John Burgess like this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page