Next show you go to a show, ask some of the experienced dealers what their experience is breaking up silver rolls from the 30's and 40's. I suspect they will confirm my observations -- some of the coins are as silver as the day they were minted.
IMHO and I'm no pro... If the coin were dipped it would have 2 marks somewhere on the coin... You would have to look through high magnification... As for no toning it may have been professionally preserved!!!
Professionally preserved in 1917? That really isn't possible, although I would love to know the pegree of that coin. Ruben
What your talking about is there is being two dark spots on the oin where it was held when it was dipped. Well, that stands to reason somewhat, assuming it was held. But most folks who dip coins know all about that so they don't hold them. They let them go - thus removing the chance for a dark spot - and then pick them right back up.
Yes, it can happen. But it is no where near as common as you make it sound. One reason I know that is because collectors struggled for years trying to find a way to keep their coins from toning in paper rolls. They even used to wrap them in tin foil first and then slip it back inside the paper roll. The other problem of course is just how many of those old paper rolls do you really think were really original ? Or do you believe that there are unsearched rolls on ebay too ? That is not something new ya know. The unsearched roll scam has been going on longer than I have been alive. It was commonplace to remove the coins from the roll, dip some, and then replace them leaving the toned coins on the outer ends of the roll. A great many of those dealers you speak of were fooled back then just like the newbies on ebay are now. Coins tone - period. And to find untoned coins of more than say 30 years old is one of two things - very rare, or dipped. And you know what I think of the word rare.
The folks on the other forums thought much the same as those here. Many called it dipped and many said probably. Just as many said there was no way to tell from the images. About what I thought folks would say. Not many new thoughts on storage methods but some things to think about. The Type-1 were hoard coins so many did get saved. In early days folks used metal tins for storage. The tin would react before the coins. This goes along with what Leadfoot was saying. I really thought there would be more information posted on storage methods. I guess most of those that would know more about this have passed on by now. Thought this might be of interest to some.
Don't forget about the find in CA in the 70's . I think it was J. cline who cherry picked a few rolls, the rest were otherwise liquidated .
unsearched rolls on ebay - yes as long as we dont answer the question unsearched for what unsearched roll scam - there cant be anything going on longer then you were alive we both know that would be impossible rare - hmmm there is no such thing as a rarity if one coin exists
After reading this entire post, I am reminded that back when (?) people used to coat Lincoln cents with clear lacquer to keep em red. Worked well too unless the lacquer cracked or chipped. Acetone would easily dissolve the lacquer and leave no trace. Could something like this been used on this or other "white" silver?
Yeah it could have happened. But using lacquer was not really done until the '40s & '50s. How did the coin remain untoned for 20 or 30 years ? Guys the issue is this - when a coin is minted it starts toning in that instant. before the coin can hit the hopper it falls into it starts to tone. Now that sounds extreme, but it is true. There is no time delay, not 1 second. As soon as the coin is exposed to the air it starts to tone. No you can't see it with the naked eye in the early stages, but the toning is happening. And unless the coin is stored in a manner to protect it from toning when it is still very new then it will be toned. And since they had no storage methods back then to do this - the coin would have to be toned. Now as I have said numerous times already, yes anything is possible. But how many times is anything possible ? Enough to explain all the blast white exaamples of this coin ? Gimme a break. Thus we must concede that these coins have been dipped. Sure all collectors want to believe that they are the one who owns the one in a million coin that somehow survived original and untoned for nearly a hundred years. But the reality is that almost all of them are wrong. They own dipped coins. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Doug I still don't buy into what you say . Your implying that every single piece of ( for argument sake ) Blast white Silver , that has hit the auction blocks has been dipped , not only this issue , but all the encapsulated survivors of silver coinage that exist in this condition . Even those in the Estates of some of our most notable names in Numismatics . Personally , I find that highly improbable . I personally sold rolls of 1932 Quarters to a dealer about 8 years ago. We cracked out two rolls, and almost the entire roll , in both were amazingly blast white coins. These rolls were from the estate of my step-father which I received, among other issues .He saved them in rolls , in a cigar box , underneath his bed. Figure that one out.
I read the responses from Idhair's post in the Collectors Society . Theres a chap who brings up a good point, and that is the " Third Side " of the Coin. Unfortunately we won't have a definitive answer regarding this coin , and it is ridiculous to further attempt to debate the possibility , probability or whatever . If in fact the coin has been "dipped" , it was done with the hands of a " Professional " . Had this coin been presented with a " pedigree" perhaps those that prefer to believe the impossibility for this coin to have survived in this condition , might have a different opinion and maybe not . The fact is , that many of these were saved ( hoarded ). Perhaps I'm na-ieve , and contrary to the consensus here , I believe the coin in question to be all original . This has been a great thread with some good thought provoking statements on both ends of the question .
UMMMMM I really don't think so. Doug, I truly do understand your position regarding this coin , and the probability of silver coinage surviving almost 100 yrs , without either being toned or dipped . However , I take each coin in a given series on it's own merits , along with the historical data for the issue . Peace Dollars is another series where many have survived , quite brilliant and untoned . I simply can't agree that they were all professionally restored . Than again, perhaps I am just a naive and stubborn old man. Thanks for your astute opinions . BTW I am not partial to Blast White Coins , I like a little color along with that luster .
Lemme ask you - if Q. David Bowers told you the same things I have been telling you, would you believe him ?
I would ask him if he is of the opinion, that all brilliant white encapsulated coinage , lacking any toning , regardless of series or issue has been enhanced by this process prior to being encapsulated . I truly don't think that he would make such a statement . Now , I said before doug , I don't disagree that many pieces that exist in this condition , and encapsulated have been re-touched by this process. I'm not debating that . But to simply say, because a coin is 100 years old and shows no indication of toning that it assuredly has been dipped , implies that all that exist in that condition have . That is simply un-true , and it is a mis-leading position . The statement comes across as being an absolute, and you know that it should not be taken that way or perhaps you do . I am well aware of some of the amazing results with this process if done properly . Do many collectors , even dealers do it, you bet they do . The way I hear you though , is that we should assume that ALLl of these similar condition coins most assuredly have been enhanced using this technique , and to have a truly "original" mint state specimen is an absolute impossibility because of the natural process that occurs more often than not , toning . I'm not disagreeing with the premise that probably 85% or so have been worked in this manner . No argument there . I'll agree that it is probably more likely than not that most have been dipped, just not all .
Oddly , I just came about this in the PA Americana Auction . Unfortunately there isn't a photos to go with it. I'll copy the describes lot. 1917 TY1 MS 65 FH NGC .A satiny white coin, with decent luster and the expected strong strike. NO Signs of Toning here, Just lustrous white surfaces . A short lived type and always in demand by collectors. From the Eliasberg Collection . I wouldn't had wanted to be the one who told him his coin was dipped , I don't think D. Q would either . Or perhaps maybe he did it.
I have a very similar story as your own, except it was my grandfather, and the rolls were dimes and quarters from the 40's and 50's -- which he got from the bank and rolled himself. Most were edge toned, and some were unattractive. However, many of the coins (I'd say 10-20%, going from memory) were as white as the day they were minted (they were opened in the early 80's, incidentally), despite being stored in a jar in a basement in Philadelphia for 30+ years. Is it common? No? Is it possible -- absolutely, and I've seen it with my own two eyes.
