Featured Diocletian: Two Interesting Coins and a Legacy of Reform

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Curtisimo, Dec 14, 2017.

  1. Ancient Aussie

    Ancient Aussie Supporter! Supporter

    Thanks Doug, I haven't spent much time learning about these type of mint marks and codes. I would appreciate it if you could enlighten me, I know it's mint is Siscia and I think RIC V/11 263. Minted about 293/4 AD.
     
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  3. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    Perhaps if I pick a small selection of Diocletian and Mah Herc from the same issues and put them side by side we can try and see if it matches the desicription in RIC.
    Some coins repeated from above. I think that within a particular issue it is difficult to pick out what RIC is saying.

    Issue 2
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Emission 4
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    Emission 7
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    [​IMG]
    Emission 12
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Adding Chlorus and Galerius from this issue too just for comparison
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Heal well and fast, James. Please be careful while mending. Hope to see you busy here on CT!
    Best, Brian
     
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  5. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Dombes collector Supporter

    @Curtisimo, that's a most fantastic and interesting writeup, thanks and congrats tor that. I will had everything "Diocletian" I have to get them together in this thread.

    @jamesicus, 88 bones can't be broken that easy, they knew how to buid solid back then, I wish you quick recovering Sir !


    [​IMG]
    Diocletian, Antoninianus Siscia mint, 1st officina, AD 285-287
    IMP CC VAL DIOCLETIANVS PF AVG, Radiate and draped bust of Diocletianus right
    CLEMENTIA TEMP, Diocletianus facing Jupiter giving him a Victory. A in field, XXI at exergue
    4,61 gr
    Ref : Cohen #19, RCV # 12630 (40), RIC V, Part 2, 252


    [​IMG]
    Diocletian, Argenteus Nicomedia mint, 3rd officina, AD 295-296
    DIOCLETI ANVS AVG, Laureate head of Diocletian right
    VICTORIAE SARMATICAE, The tetrarchs sacrifying before a campgate. SMNΓat exergue
    3.3 gr
    Ref : RCV # 12615 (1000), Cohen #491 var,


    [​IMG]
    Diocletian, Follis Trier mint, 1st officina, c. AD 303-305
    IMP DIOCLETIANVS AVG, laureate and cuirassed bust right.
    GENIO POPVLI ROMANI, Genius standing left, head towered, wearing chlamys over left shoulder, holding patera in right hand, left cornucopiae; S | F in field, PTR at exergue
    11.97 gr 29 mm
    Ref : RIC VI, Trier, 582a, RCV # 12763v,


    [​IMG]
    Diocletian, Follis Alexandria mint, 2nd officina, c. AD 304-305
    IMP C DIOCLETIANVS P F AVG, Laureate bust of Diocletianus right
    IOVI CONS CAES, Jupiter standing left, holding victory and spear. B in right field S | P in lower field, ALE at exergue
    11.21 gr
    Ref : Cohen # 173, RCV # 12805 (180), RIC VI # 41

    Q
     
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  6. jamesicus

    jamesicus Supporter! Supporter

    Thank you Bing! My spirits are up, but my contributions here are down (some may say that is not such a bad thing!).
     
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  7. jamesicus

    jamesicus Supporter! Supporter

    Still a mistake - I will get this right one of these days,
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
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  8. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    Anyone interested in the series is invited to see my page and excessive comments.
    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/code.html
    even though I never updated it to include the other positions. More to do but will I???
    A + I
    ru3280fd2029.jpg B + O
    ru3290bb2022.jpg
    Γ + BI
    ru3300bb1873.jpg
    IOBI spells Iovi in Greek or by Jove, by Jove. All versions of officina placement come in all letters.
     
  9. jamesicus

    jamesicus Supporter! Supporter

    Actually I should not be feeling sorry for myself. Remember me posting about my ex-USAF Boss, Col. Richard E. Cole, the last surviving Doolittle Raider (WW2 - Thirty Seconds over Tokyo)? Well, I just received this Christmas card - it gladdens my heart, and makes my year, to know he is well. How about that? Not bad for a 102 year old guy!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    It makes my bruised ribs complaint appear trifling!
     
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  10. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish) Supporter

    This and your previous post are good information that answer a lot of the questions I had about the Lugdunum mint. Judging from what you have shown (please correct me if you see it differently) I am inclined to think the following is true regarding portraits from that mint;
    1. The portraits of Diocletian were unique in style compared to other mints during the sole rule (1st emission) but gradually became more conventional with each subsequent emission.
    2. The idea proposed in RIC that the portraits struck at Lugdunum of Diocletian and Maximian can be distinguished based on style should be reconsidered.
    I will make a note in my OP write up to reference your posts on the issue.
     
  11. jamesicus

    jamesicus Supporter! Supporter

    Constantius British Invasion coinage (folles) produced at an unknown Continental Mint (some French scholars list it as Boulogne) by Lugdunese workers.

    RIC Volume VI, Lugdunum, Group I, (iv), folles, Class I, No. 14-21, c. 296, 10.5-8.75 gm.

    No. 14a - Diocletian:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    IMP C DIOCLETIANVS PF AVG ............................. GENIO POPV -- LI ROMANI

    9.8 gm

    No. 14b - Maximian Herculius:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    IMP C MAXIMIANVS PF AVG ................................. GENIO POP -- VLI ROMANI

    8.9 gm

    No. 17a - Constantius:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    FL VAL CONSTANTIVS NOB C .............................. GENIO POPV -- LI ROMANI

    10.1 gm
    Fully silvered

    No. 17b - Galerius Maximian:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    C VAL MAXIMIANVS NOB C ....................................... GENIO POPV LI ROMANI

    9.8 gm
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
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  12. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    I would agree with that. The analysis of chonology with this series was less mature when RIC was issued. Bastien has moved this forwards a great deal. There is still more to be found out. The Max Herc. Emission 7 illustrates this.

    Antoninianus
    Obv:– IMP MAXIMIANVS P F AVG, Radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right (seen from front)
    Rev:– IOVI AVGG, Jupiter standing right holding thunderbolt and spear,eagle at feet.
    Minted in Lugdunum (//A). Emission 7. Officina 1. Spring A.D. 290 – A.D. 291
    Reference(s) – Cohen -. Bastien - (0). RIC V Pt. 2 Lugdunum - Bust Type C. This reverse type not noted in RIC or Bastien for Maximianus Herculius. It is noted in RIC and Bastien for Diocletian (RIC quotes as common, Bastien 300 (1 example), 301 (1 example) and 302 (3 examples) would appear to counter this rating)

    I can but hope that the same analysis can be applied across all the other mints.
     
  13. jamesicus

    jamesicus Supporter! Supporter

    Very early Diocletian follis circa. AD 295

    RIC Volume VI, Lugdunum, Group I, (ii), Diocletian, No. 2a

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    IMP C DIOCLETIANVS P F AVG .................. GENIO POP - VLI ROMANI
    LA in reverse exergue.

    Lugdunum mint follis (marked LA) referred to by Sutherland in his introductory text to the Londinium section of RIC Volume VI.
    The reverse on this coin (and on most London mint coins) depicts a representation of the Genius of the Roman People standing, facing left, head surmounted by a modius, naked except for a chlamys over the left shoulder, holding a patera in the right hand and cradling a cornucopia in the left arm.
    8.5 gm.
     
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  14. jamesicus

    jamesicus Supporter! Supporter

    Thank you for your well-wishes @Cucumbor. And for posting great coins - as usual!
     
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  15. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish) Supporter

    I would not be among those who might say that. I appreciate your posts and especially those to this thread!
     
  16. jamesicus

    jamesicus Supporter! Supporter

    Thank you! Do you have any comments relating to my “British Invasion coinage of Constantius” post?
     
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  17. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish) Supporter

    The main comment that comes to mind is that those are absolutely fascinating pieces! Thank you for drawing my attention back to them. As many may know I love coins that tell a story and these definitely have a cool story to tell. According to RIC these were specifically minted by Constantius Chlorus in preparation for his invasion of Britain and victory over Allectus. His invasion was very meticulously planned indeed. RIC VI had the following to say about this class.

    "The mint of Lyon [Lugdunum] was at this period being used somewhat freely in easing Constantius' monetary problems elsewhere: its officinae C and D were absorbed by Trier to assist in the production at least of silver, and, since the next identifiable Lugdunese folles are signed only LP (i.e. from a single officina), it is to be supposed that either A or B was occupied (or perhaps even both A and B) with the pre-campaign aes coinage to be carried to Britain. Perhaps this unmarked [class] I coinage was produced at Lyons itself..."

    Allow me to post my Constantius Chlorus from the Siscia mint in honor of your cool post and even cooler coins :)

    Constantius_I_Follis.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
  18. jamesicus

    jamesicus Supporter! Supporter

    Excellent @Curtisimo. I wanted to see if you had a special interest in this series. They do not seem to be offered for sale very often. I have a duplicate No. 17a - Constantius - if you would like it, send me a PM with your snail-mail address and I will mail it to you.
     
  19. jamesicus

    jamesicus Supporter! Supporter

    Notes from my web page relating to this series:
    • In his introductory notes to RIC VI, Londinium, Sutherland states that "Bastien is to be followed in regarding the umarked coins of Class I as an issue prepared in advance for Constantius' invasion of Britain in 296".
    • Coin obverses depict right facing busts with bare neck truncation and laureate heads with the long laurel wreath ribbon laying on the neck. The Genius of the Roman People reverse depiction and inscription is standard with no mint mark. The inscriptional lettering is relatively large with delicate letterforms.
    • Reverse axis is 6 or 12 o'clock.
    • Weight range is 10.5 to 8.75 gm.
    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish) Supporter

    Wow @jamesicus I don't know what to say! That is such a nice and generous gesture. Thank you so much. I will PM you shortly
     
  21. LaCointessa

    LaCointessa Supporter! Supporter

    Gee whiz @jamesicus! I am not “liking” your fall, but I am relating to you because I also fell head first from an upright standing position into a wall at home a couple of months ago. Crazy, ain’t it?
    I am glad you are recuperating.

    Everyone’s coins related to this thread are incredible! Thanks for posting them. Here are some of mine. I know I have a Diocletian around here somewhere. These photographs are horrid but you get the idea.

    @chrsmat71, Isn’t this Licinius immediately below one of the group of coins you sent to me not too long ago? Or was it the last one below? I remember you sent me photos of them so I can go back and check. Thanks again for those coins!
    Edited to say that Ipad and posting on Ct doesn’t work very well for me. Sorry for the typos.

    E71173A6-E942-4752-93EF-A849CCC860FD.jpeg

    00FC86EB-7296-4515-8E05-7BEAFD55741D.jpeg


    Below -
    Maximianus -Not attributed yet.

    3CBB807F-16FE-4FFB-BA47-4DC3C8AB256A.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
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