Die States, or, The Journey of a Die from First Strike to Terminal State

Well, the conditions would have to be just right for that to happen - but theoretically, yes. If all of the coins in the roll were from the same die (which isn't necessarily the case - the coins often get all mixed up), and if there is some large feature that you can easily see, then the die can be tracked in a single roll. I have opened a couple of rolls before where ~10 of the coins were clearly from the same die, as identified by a large rim cud. The die was near the end of its life, and was deteriorating rapidly. I didn't put all 10 in order, but there was one that was clearly an earlier state than the last one.

Theoretically, however (and this would require a very high degree of magnification), each strike produces a tiny amount of wear on the die and could be placed in order of strike. Practically, the die state is most important when a new die break, clash, polishing, or further evolution in the life of the die appears. You can watch a die break grow over the life of the die (there are a number of Capped Bust Half dollars where this is true). One of the things the John Reich Collectors Society does is they will designate a die variety for people to bring to a meeting - everyone who has one brings one. Then they compare, and you can put them in order of striking by die state.

 

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Nice post @physics-fan3.14! Thanks to @fish4uinmd for reviving it as I was not a member back then.

Please allow me to butt-in-ski . In an imaginary world with enough magnification (electron microscope) a scientist could possibly take a roll of cents and tell the order that the coins left the press. However, in real life the coins are mixed from several presses and mixed even further before you would get one. This should probably make the job of our mythical scientist even easier; but as a practical consideration, this is not possible.

IMO, the important things to understand are in the OP.

 

Wouldn't it be so cool if you could possibly isolate a coin that was the the last one struck with a particular die? Thanks to both of you for responding.

 

If you worked at the mint's press, you could...

 

I know I am super late to the party, but a huge THANK YOU to @physics-fan3.14 for an amazing post that explained the whole process and made it simple for me to understand. All of the examples you have shown appear to me as some sort of icon with an X over it. Can anyone tell me why I can't view these pics?

 

The original post was from 2009. Over time, the links appear to have broken. I'm not sure why, but I can't edit the OP to fix it, unfortunately.

 

If you want to read all of the original post, I highly recommend you get a copy of Jason's book...(if you have not already)...he devotes an entire chapter to die states.

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-...keywords=the+art+and+science+of+grading+coins

 

I will, thank you. This subject is facinating to me.

 

Yep, as a novice, it has my interest too.

 

Thankx to fish4 and the link to Jasons book on Amazon I'll pick that one up. Jason thankx to you for such informative material. I couldn't agree more about First Strikes and Early Release Labels...I feel just as strongly about the futility of "Signed" Labels where the Signature is of a deceased person...what's the point... just another gimmick to charge more for a graded coin...aaargh!

 

Great older post. Thanks for resurrecting as I missed it first time around.

A few years ago I bought a $20 mint bag of 1945-S Cents. I was hoping for a wide range of dies in the bag as I am a die variety collector, but a quick look through the bag shows that all 2000 coins appear to be from the same die. I have often thought of checking through all the coins to see what variations I could see across this 2000 piece sample. Maybe some day.

A short while back I went through a group of about 50 rolls of 1955-S Cents, and within that sample of rolls I found a full range of die stages / states for the 1955-S RPM#4. This RPM exhibits a BIE that progresses from crack to chip / break over the life of the die. I took photos of Stage A, C, E, J, and K and created an animation showing the die stage / state progression. You can see the individual Stage photos here: http://www.macrocoins.com/progressions.html.

 

Kudos to your work!! This is incredible!

 

This is the kind of stuff that makes chasing down these round pieces of metal worth while.

 

Great post! thanks for sharing!

 

Very. Many VAM collectors try to do this, especially when the late die states show dramatic trauma rather than more graceful aging, but the best anyone can come up with now is an approximation, or the last struck of the known surviving specimens.

The Mint had an opportunity to do this a while back when they had their coin and die sets. They sold them with one of the first coins struck, but the sets would have been far more interesting and popular had they also included the last coin struck showing why the die was retired.

 

When it is mentioned that the original thread was broken, is that the explanation as to why I can access only the image of the Jefferson 1999-P?
Steve

 

Jason,
For present day 1oz American silver eagles, what would be an approximate total number of coins that can be minted in the life-span of the die during its assumed early die state? Would this number be significantly different for its proof counterpart?

 

Since the link for the 1804 C-6 die stages posed back in 2009 is dead, here is another link that takes you to a Coinfacts page that illustrates 13 of the die stages

http://www.coinfacts.com/half_cents/1804_half_cents/1804_half_cent_c06_die_state_low_res.htm

 

Yes it would be very different that for the proofs. An early die state for the bullion coins would probably be 25,000 to 50,000 coins or more, with a full run of maybe 250,000. The entire life of the proof die from first strike to retirement is on the order of 3,500 to 5,000 coins.