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<p>[QUOTE=&quot;HawkeEye, post: 2728614, member: 86305&quot;]As Messydesk knows I got into this pretty deep a while back and you might enjoy this page <a href="http://www.1881o.com/date_issues.html" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.1881o.com/date_issues.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.1881o.com/date_issues.html</a>&nbsp; No problem borrowing the image so long as you site it to me and VSS.&nbsp; Sorry for the long reply, but you peaked my interest and that is what this site is all about.&nbsp; I also like the fact that you are taking some unconventional approaches to figure things out.&nbsp; New ideas we can all kick around only serves to further our knowledge.&nbsp; If your intent is to identify the die and not associated VAMs then you might have something that contributes to our knowledge, but it might not result in a die variety in the VAM world.</p><p><br /></p><p>To the best of my knowledge in 1881 the 18 was added at the master die stage, and the 81 to the working die.&nbsp; This is why the first two digits always line up.&nbsp; I got into this pretty deep on the above page.&nbsp; But the date punches used were visibly different in some areas, so we know the same punches were not available in both places.&nbsp; Otherwise the 1s and 8s would have the same characteristics, and they definitely vary.&nbsp; Being a palindrome you would have only needed 2 punches.&nbsp; There is a lot of other evidence on this introduction of the date into the working dies, but I will let you read it on the above page.</p><p><br /></p><p>For the 1881-O there are no definitive near/far date issues to my knowledge.&nbsp; Proper measurement of this anomaly (as defined by Roger Burdette who I think is the authority) starts with the distance from the neck to the first 1 and not alignment to a denticle as is often described.</p><p><br /></p><p>This leads to the understanding that for all dates beginning with 18 (most Morgans) the way the date placement was devised (my opinion) was that the 18 was pretty much fixed in location using a jig at the master die stage.&nbsp; But the first digit and the last digit in the date always had to line up vertically.&nbsp; So it was the third digit, in this case the second 8, that had to move around to have an evenly spaced date.&nbsp; The last digit is the key because they varied in width slightly (1, 2, 3, 4, etc.) with the passing years.&nbsp; Since there are no major near/far or high/low date issues identified (probably other jigs prevented this) I believe the alignment issue you saw is as Messydesk described and just not significant enough to be recognized.&nbsp; Remember the stars were added by hand because the reduction lathe was not used to create them.&nbsp; This was not because it could not do it, but because the Mint personnel lacked the skill/training to use it this way.</p><p><a href="http://www.1881o.com/reduction.html" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.1881o.com/reduction.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.1881o.com/reduction.html</a></p><p>Any movement or slight rotation of a star punch would give you a different result.</p><p><br /></p><p>On the two examples you pulled there is another factor that I would have to consider.&nbsp; The toned coin has been repolished several times or the working die was not completely imprinted from the working hub.&nbsp; I know this because of the hair curl above the date.&nbsp; If you look at them they are different.&nbsp; On the toned coin they are incomplete and if this came from the creation of the die then that can change things.</p><p><br /></p><p>All of that said, I think there is a way to figure out the master dies, which I think might be more interesting.&nbsp; I have not had a chance to analyze it yet, but I will get there.&nbsp; If you can link the working dies to the master dies I think you have a better working knowledge to figure out the working dies.&nbsp; But all that is something I need to work on.</p><p><br /></p><p>If you have not read &quot;From Mine to Mint&quot; by Roger Burdette I would recommend you get a copy.&nbsp; There is more information on the die creation process there than any other source I have located.&nbsp; Keep studying and communicating please because fresh thinking helps us all.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>

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