Die cracks, Die state and grading.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Casman, Sep 20, 2019.

  1. Casman

    Casman Active Member

    Are these statements correct?

    1) Die cracks develop in late die states.

    2)Late die state coins exhibit less details than early strikes.

    3) Late die state coins should not grade higher than early die state coins.
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  3. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes? Supporter

    I would say a more correct statement would be "die cracks are more likely to develop in later die states." There are plenty of examples of brand new dies with cracks, due to a flaw in the manufacturing process.

    Yes, this is usually true. The die is being worn as it strikes coins over its life. The effect is the crisp details tend to become softer. Luster quality will also change over the life of a die. Additionally, clashes may develop, or mint workers will pull a die and polish it. Excessive polishing is the cause for things like 3-legged buffalos.

    I can't make that statement definitively.

    As mentioned earlier, the detail of the coin may be different - but TPG's don't really punish this during grading. However, as the luster changes, certain types of luster appear more attractive and will thus earn a higher grade. Now, whether that happens at beginning of life, mid die state, or late die state? That's up to you as a grader to decide which kind of luster you prefer. When market grading a coin, the luster and eye appeal play a big role in determining the grade.
  4. Casman

    Casman Active Member

    Thanks. Still trying to learn.
  5. robec

    robec Junior Member

    Not necessarily. Which of the two coins below is graded higher (without looking at the Cert number)


  6. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    I’ll leave this here for discussion. The dies were severely rusted.

    3F78AEC8-43D6-463C-9514-831B5F7CEDC2.jpeg FD4B13B2-C8CC-4967-B0DB-1BB23940D146.jpeg D61C3282-9796-4D22-AE98-4A7789BD8298.jpeg 96CBC915-A7F9-4121-B7B4-3E479BF6EC0A.jpeg
    Johndoe2000$ likes this.
  7. Casman

    Casman Active Member

    I will guess the top as I'd initially picked the bottom.
  8. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    The MS-67 dime is over graded from the market perspective, which what matters for a slab. An early die state is worth a lot more. Once you get beyond MS-64, the die state matters. Well struck, sharp coins are worth more than blunt struck examples.
  9. robec

    robec Junior Member

    The top Lincoln is MS63, the bottom is MS64+.
  10. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes? Supporter

    On the first, there is a huge planchet flaw between the stems. That's going to hurt the grade.

    I think the real question is - all other things being equal (contact marks, eye appeal, etc), will the later die state receive a different grade?

    And yeesh, that is a *really* late state 19D!
  11. robec

    robec Junior Member

    There’s probably something wrong with me, but I really like the look of the late die state coin.
  12. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Are you ready to pay for it when few others will? Late die states do not get super high grades.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
    wxcoin likes this.
  13. robec

    robec Junior Member

    Well I’ve had it for awhile and don’t regret it for a moment.
    wxcoin likes this.
  14. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    You will if you paid MS-67 money when it comes time to sell. NGC graded coins can’t get away with this.
    wxcoin likes this.
  15. robec

    robec Junior Member

    Didn't pay anything close to that.
  16. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes? Supporter

    I think John is talking about the Seated Dime, which is also an extremely late die state.
  17. robec

    robec Junior Member

    Ohhh, thanks for the heads up.
  18. WFN

    WFN Member

    For early US coins, die cracks can occur in any die stage, and the cracks often get more severe in later die states.

    In the words of Chief Engraver Robert Scot, "From the same source of uncertain decision whereby the time executing the Dies cannot be ascertained, arises the same difficulty in determining how long they will last. Namely, the precariousness and uncertainty of hardening and tempering the Dies, whereby they are often lost without striking a single Coin..."

    Here is an example of a 1795 T-19 half dollar that has a huge reverse die break as seen on all known examples:

    091  c.JPG
    greed ball and NSP like this.
  19. David Colquhoun

    David Colquhoun Active Member

    The brown cent has a nice strike
  20. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    1. Die cracks can develop at ANY die state, even before the first coin is struck from them. They are more likely to be found on late die states than early ones, and a die can reach a very late state and be retired without ever developing a die crack.

    2. This is true. An early strike will be in an early state while a late state is just that a late state and what determines the die state is the amount of wear the die has sustained. As with the coins, wear results in detail loss.

    3. This is false, the grade is determined by the amount of wear on the coin, contact marks, strike, and eye appeal. An uncirculated well struck late die state coin can easily grade higher than a poorly struck early state with a lot of marks.

    One thing to remember is not to confuse die state with die stage.
  21. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 64 years

    I would guess the bottom. The reverse of the top coin has some deep marks in the field near the bottom. The reverse of the bottom coin is clean although the die is very worn; even the wheat lines are pretty much gone. Personally, I'd rather have the brown top coin since the details are much better.
    robec likes this.
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