Die Clash or Die Crack?

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by Tin_Man_0, Jul 16, 2019.

  1. Tin_Man_0

    Tin_Man_0 Active Member

    Found this 2019 that seems to have a rather large die crack, the crack appears to go from his eye up to the top of the head and around to the back of the head. It's a rather strange crack, especially from what I've seen on more recent coins. The only times I've see a crack this big going around like this is on bigger coins so now I'm like wondering if it's a die clash or something else. Also, I think I see some doubling around the edge of the head, but that just might be my eyes. Are die cracks worth anything?
    WIN_20190715_13_40_27_Pro.jpg WIN_20190715_13_36_16_Pro.jpg WIN_20190715_13_36_53_Pro.jpg WIN_20190715_13_37_45_Pro.jpg WIN_20190715_13_38_39_Pro.jpg WIN_20190715_13_38_51_Pro.jpg WIN_20190715_13_45_47_Pro.jpg
     
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  3. ken454

    ken454 Well-Known Member

    can not be a clash, clashes are seen on high ares of the die, mostly fields, not on such a deep area as this, looks like a crack, but IMO i dont believe they carry a premium unless its like a shattered die....
     
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  4. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    I'm going to start by saying it's a die crack. Most are not valuable, as stated above. I do not see this one as having a premium.

    I'm going to disagree about it not being able to be a clash. I used to think this as well, until I started noticing coins that have a clash on deeper areas of the die. Here's an example of my own. When you look straight down from the eagle's beak, you see the start of Washington's outline. Notice, however, that you cannot see a clash in the fields?
    E1A7D4F9-4725-43CB-BCB5-B0FDC7AE3E1A.jpeg 7595B9F1-EEEF-4E72-BCBF-5290BFCC24CB.jpeg
     
  5. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

  6. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Maybe it's just my eyes but the area in question does not appear to be raised to me. If it is raised then it would be a die crack. To me this looks more like a lamination error. It is difficult to tell from the photos posted.
     
  7. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Can you circle this on any photo here? I don’t see anything that looks like split plate doubling.
     
  8. Spark1951

    Spark1951 Accomplishment, not activity

    Yes, die cracks all around, imo. Unfortunately, they are so common on shield cents the trick is to find them without cracks...Spark
     
  9. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    I looked again but it still looks like lamination issues and not Die cracks. I do not see. My areas that are raised. I will add that that white stuff is very distracting to me.
     
  10. ken454

    ken454 Well-Known Member

    yes but that area of the eagles wing is a shallow area of the die, no where near as deep as lincolns head...
     
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  11. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    Sorry, not tech savvy and don't know how to do the circle. The areas I'm talking about are the 2nd photo, the shiny spots on Lincoln's head; other photos; the shine at the back of the head and behind the ear and the lettering LIBERTY. Unless it's just a reflection due to the lighting.
     
    Seattlite86 likes this.
  12. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Maybe, but there are reasons we have things like talon head Ike dollars. I think telling new folks that clashes should really only be on the devices is a bit misleading and could lead them to overlook clashes that are in higher places.
     
  13. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    I felt the need to point out that split plate doubling does not happen on the actual head/letters/numbers/design, but the doubling is an expansion of the design into the fields. Doubling in Lincoln’s head would be caused by something else. I think the lighting is playing tricks for the rest of what you mentioned.
     
  14. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    Thank you. I learned something new today. :happy:
     
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  15. ken454

    ken454 Well-Known Member

    think you misread something, i dont see this stated anywhere in this thread...
     
  16. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    This is what I was referring to, which I think can confuse new collectors.
     
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  17. ken454

    ken454 Well-Known Member

    of course your assuming that a new collector actually knows how a clash occurs..

    " The field area of the die is most likely to pick up clash marks because this part of die face is farthest in front. Shallow recesses on the die face (corresponding to low-relief areas on the coin) can also pick up clash marks. Deep recesses are generally protected from even the strongest clashes."
    is this less confusing, what i stated but in more detail....
    http://www.maddieclashes.com/389-2/
     
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  18. Spark1951

    Spark1951 Accomplishment, not activity

    @Seattlite86 @ken454 ...Great job clarifying this...I, too, have thought only of the fields being affected by clashing, now I have seen that it can happen elsewhere...makes sense...Spark
     
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  19. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    @Seattlite86 I retract my previous reply and feel I have to reply to your comment that split plate doubling does not happen on certain areas of the coin. How is the following explained?
    http://www.error-ref.com/?s=split+plate+doubling
    The part where it states that "The exposed zinc often outlines large centrally located design elements, like busts and buildings. Split plate doubling can, however, involve any design element, including peripheral ones".
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
    Seattlite86 likes this.
  20. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    So the part I took issue with, was you saying the doubling was the shiny parts ON Lincoln’s head. Split plate doubling does not actually occur on devices, but expands into the fields surrounding the devices. Split plate doubling normally occurs at the center of the coin, but can also occur on the periphery where letters and numbers tend to be (especially with broad struck coins). So doubling on something like Lincoln’s ear wouldn’t be explained by split plate doubling.

    @ken454 no, I’m assuming that the combination of the relative ambiguity in the word “high” and you saying that it absolutely cannot be a clash would confuse someone to thinking that if there is no clash in the fields, then what they have can’t be a clash. It’s really a matter of semantics, but for beginners, I think your last definition is spot on and reduces ambiguity/confusion.
     
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  21. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    OK :)
     
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