Did Santa bring me a Morgan Surprise DD??

Well like I said....the coin more than likely was slabbed this year but it might have been before SEPT when they started putting VAMS on the slabs....call them and see if you send it in for a reholding if they would also put the VAM on for free....they might charge a fee to put it on the slab but it would be cheaper to just have it re-holded....otherwise you will have to send it back in for the whole 9-yards....

Speedy

 

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The open nostril or overpolished nostril is on several 1878's. If you're looking at the 1878-P VAM 79 on the Hot 50 List, it's a 7TF. Yours is an 8TF.

Why the doubling, tripling, etc, all over your coin? 'Cuz it's very cool. I'm still leaning toward the VAM 18A. Though it's not on the Top 100 or Hot 50 list, it would still be very desirable to an 1878 8TF collector. There are many folks trying to complete an 8TF set. But you don't want to sell!?

PCGS will only designate the VAM on the label if you pay the extra fee. Even if it's a supreme super VAM, it doesn't get the VAM designation on the label unless you request it and pay for it. Same applies to ANACS. I've never sent anything to NGC. You can send the coin back to PCGS and pay the VAM fee (and probably the re-holder fee).

I'm at work now. Try to take a picture of wing area where the bottom of each wing meets the lower part of the eagle. This will verify the reverse die, narrow down the possibilities, and possibly confirm the VAM guess. Take a picture of Liberty's neck area where I think I saw clash. This may confirm the 18A sub-variety.

 

Here are the Wings, hope this is the area we need.

Again you are the best!

 

Here is the Neck, hope its what we need.

 

Are those photos from a QX5? They look great.

From what I recall, the reverse looks a little different from the VAM 18 photos I was reviewing last night. I'll check my books when I return home tonight.

The neck photo I was looking for should be similar to this...
neck_clash.

The wing photos are fine. Here are some other examples...
left_wing
right_wing

 

Its a sony W7 with the lens flush on my microscope. Thanks for the info and research you are doing. Let me know anything you find.

 

do you have a special microscope?

How do you get such good pictures without bluriness. I use an old camera lens that gets me close enough but I can't get the microscope type pictures like you have. Please let me know how you do it. Tom

 

That is the same way I do photos like that and here is what I do....make sure when you are looking though the Microscope that it is a little bit too high and is blury...because when your camera lens gets down to the microscpe it will push the lens (on the Microscope) down so the microscope will get blury....try it again and just make it a little too sharp...

Speedy

 

The thin single feather added on eagle's right side narrows it down quite a bit. I only see three reverse dies listed that match the image and description.
A2/A1b
A2/A1c
A2/A1d
VAMs 19, 20, and 21 have these reverses.

Your picture of the left wreath does not have the extra berry. This eliminates VAM 19.

VAM 21 does have an overpolished nostril, but other characteristics don't seem to match. LIBERTY is shifted slightly left. Your coin is not a slight shift, and it's up and left. The VAM 21 photo of LIBERTY doesn't match your photos. This eliminates VAM 21.

VAM 20 has LIBERTY shifted up and left, like your coin. It shares the same obverse die as VAM 18. I guessed VAM 18 earlier because of the doubling, tripling, etc. The obverse of VAM 20 would be the same. The photo of LIBERTY on this obverse matches your coin.

I'm thinking it's a VAM 20... which is a HOT 50 coin! There are probably some more photos of this variety on the internet.

Can you take a picture of the neck area where the coin looks clashed? The other photos were too low on the neck. You want to cover the area like the example photo shown below. If a letter was transferred, it might be a sub-variety.

 

Before I get really jumpy, I will go and take the photo. How I ever was lucky enough to get your help and thorough research is beyond me! And all the other help and compliments from this forum are amazing :smile Be back in a minute....

 

It goes both ways. I'll be in debt to this forum and members for a long time to come.

I just noticed Becky is logged on. She's a better VAMmer than I'll ever be. Maybe she can check out my analysis and give some insight.

 

O.K. I am in shock! :high5: Can you tell me what this means again please.

 

If you don't mind, what is the I/? R/? Of a VAM 20?

 

The line under Liberty's neck is a clash mark from the eagle's wing on the reverse. Clashing is VERY common on Morgans. It happens when a blank planchet is not in place and the two dies smash together, leaving impressions of the opposing die. Distinct VAM designations are given if a letter is transfered. It could happen with I, N, or IN clashed under Liberty's neck, or S, ST, or T from TRUST clashing under the hairvee, or the designer's initial "M" appearing on the reverse over GOD. There are others. I was checking for an N under the long line. Still not sure if I see one or not. Some of them are extremely faint. If it is a VAM 20, as far as I know, there isn't a clashed N version. It would be a new discovery. Don't get too excited! I'm not experienced enough to even state it's a VAM 20!

The I is for INTEREST factor (are collectors interested); the R is for RARITY (how many might exist). The numbers were given out by Van Allen and Mallis when the VAM book was written... and now just Van Allen, since Mallis has passed on. The numbers can be subjective. They are based on the author's experience of seeing millions of coins.

I-1 normal die
I-2 minor varaitions
I-3 significant variations; interest to collectors
I-4 major variations with universal interest to collectors
I-5 outstanding variation representing the best example of its type.

R-1 common - tens of millions
R-2 several millions
R-3 scarce - hundreds of thousands
R-4 very scarce - tens of thousands
R-5 rare - several thousands
R-6 very rare - several hundred
R-7 extremely rare - few tens
R-8 unique or nearly unique - few

 

That is so kind of you to say nesvt, but you forgot, I hate 78's. I haven't even attributed my own, they make my head hurt :headbang:

I can help with the clash though, this is what you are seeing



The line on lady Liberty's neck is acually an inprint of the eagle's wing that was left on the die. A really hard clash will leave all sorts of interesting and wonderful impressions from the opposite die.



I've been watching and admiring your anyalsis of this coin nesvt, I'll reread it and see if I can find anything to add.

 

Thank you Becky. The Image gives me some clarity, but still I have strange images, Squiggle just behind the eye, Loop mark under the chin, raised features on chin, lines beneath areas on back of the morgan. I must say I think I could look all day at this coin because everywhere I look there is something new!

 

I just realized that you asked for the I and R numbers on a VAM 20, and not for me to re-list the definitions. Woops.
VAM 20 I-3 R-4.

I like that worm-like gouge behind the eye!

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of VAMming Everything is matching so far, hooked beak on the eagle, small extra feather, tripled stars, doubling on the date. Show me a nice closeup of the top outside of the left wreath where that last berry is. That would put the icing on the cake for a VAM 20.

Great coin!!

 

Thanks nesvt, Dont let the eyes play tricks. That is a raised feature, not a gouge behind the eye. Thats why I wondered if this could help indentify.

 

rujam, he is saying that there is a gouge in the die that causes a raised piece of metal on the coin.