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Did Romans and Greeks use monogram before 300s?
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<p>[QUOTE="Curtis, post: 24679707, member: 26430"]Perhaps not to the same extent as Byzantine and late Roman coinage, where the entire design could be a monogram, or systematized to the same degree as on Hellenistic coinage.</p><p><br /></p><p>I would say yes, in some limited ways, during most periods.</p><p><br /></p><p>But it raises the question of "what counts" as a "monogram": Ligate letters? Greek characters as date/controls? Small images (leaf, thunderbolt) used in RIC mintmarks? Chi-Rho symbols?</p><p><br /></p><p>On Roman Republican coinage you see names and words (e.g., ROMA) combined in ways that resemble Hellenistic monograms, usually by placing letters in ligate or overlapping. For example, the METEL on the coin below is expressed by two characters (ME & TEL):</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1574265[/ATTACH]</p><blockquote><p>Q. Caecilius Metellus AR Denarius. Cr. 256/1.</p><p>Ex FH Rindge (1857-1905) Collection & BMFA Loan (c. 1890-).</p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Or the TA monogram on this obv.:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1574266[/ATTACH]</p><blockquote><p>Titurius Sabinus AR Denarius. Crawford 344/1a.</p><p>Ex JMAL Collection, JP Righetti Collection.</p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p>You also see it more often on Roman Provincial Coinage, where it's maybe a bit of a carryover from Hellenistic Greek coinage.</p><p><br /></p><p>Here's one that's a cross-over, RPC and RRC. Does this ornate "S" count as a mongram?</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1574267[/ATTACH]</p><blockquote><p>S. Gaul. T. Pompeius Sexti Filius (?) AE Semis. <a href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/507" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/507" rel="nofollow">RPC I Online 507.14</a> = Depeyrot, NC I, 130.54 (this coin).</p><p>Ex P Villemur & Nomus Brasiliano (N. Spinola) Collections</p><p><br /></p></blockquote><p>Then again, what do we consider Roman?</p><p><br /></p><p>Here are some that may stretch the definition of Roman Provincial, but there's a case to be made. First two, like those above, have monogram obverses. The third has one on the reverse. (To the extent that they all qualify.)</p><p><br /></p><p>These two types are both included in RPC (the Drachm a recent addition), but their attributions are highly controversial (in multiple ways):</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1574268[/ATTACH]</p><blockquote><p>"Koson" AR Drachm. <a href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/1701C" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/1701C" rel="nofollow">RPC 1701C</a> for type. All struck from a single die pair. ANACS encapsulated. Possibly from HJB's batch for which they fought the Romanian government in court?</p><p><br /></p></blockquote><p>[ATTACH=full]1574270[/ATTACH]</p><blockquote><p>"Koson" AV Stater. <a href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/1701A" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/1701A" rel="nofollow">RPC 1701A</a> for type. These also come w/out monograms. NGC encapsulated. Ex Pars Coins / VAuctions.</p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>This coin is now typically dated to the final period of Marc Antony & Cleoptra's Greek/N. African reign. These kind of post-Hellenistic / pre-Provincial coins don't usually make it into RPC. But there's a strong case that it's part of their monetary reforms in Greece to apply the Roman denominational standards. In this case, it may be a Dupondius (or just the Greek equivalent [?], a Diassarion):</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1574271[/ATTACH]</p><blockquote><p>Olympia, Elis AE Dupondius (?), temp. Antony/Cleopatra (late 30's BCE). HGC 5, 544. Ex EP Warren, G Philpsen, RK Morcom, C Morcom, PR Franke Collections.</p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p>Here's a solidly Roman Imperial example. Third century. Does the mintmark count? (Lots of similar types out there.)</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1574272[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1574273[/ATTACH]</p><blockquote><p>Probus w/ lightning bolt in the mintmark.</p><p>(1) Ex Rev Richard J Plant (1928-2020) Coll. (2) Ex Kricheldorf XLI.</p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p>And then, more or less, the period that OP was talking about: Late Roman Imperial.</p><p><br /></p><p>Chi-rhos and crosses. The chi-rho would seem to qualify as a monogram by most people's definitions. The cross serves a similar purpose, but does it count? Not really I don't think...</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1574274[/ATTACH]</p><blockquote><p>Thedosius I AE4. Cyzicus. Ex Leu, reportedly from “Old Swiss collection, formed in the 1970s.”</p></blockquote><p>[ATTACH=full]1574275[/ATTACH]</p><blockquote><p>Valens from Constantinople (or imitative), <a href="http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.9.cnp.41B.7" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.9.cnp.41B.7" rel="nofollow">RIC 41b.7</a> (prototype?).</p><p>Purchased on eBay for $1.24.</p><p><br /></p></blockquote><p>I could keep going with more borderline cases of what might or might not count as a monogram... but I've hit my maximum 10 uploads! </p><p><br /></p><p>And all I've done is raised questions, not really any answers. Waiting to hear more thoughts! It's an interesting topic.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Curtis, post: 24679707, member: 26430"]Perhaps not to the same extent as Byzantine and late Roman coinage, where the entire design could be a monogram, or systematized to the same degree as on Hellenistic coinage. I would say yes, in some limited ways, during most periods. But it raises the question of "what counts" as a "monogram": Ligate letters? Greek characters as date/controls? Small images (leaf, thunderbolt) used in RIC mintmarks? Chi-Rho symbols? On Roman Republican coinage you see names and words (e.g., ROMA) combined in ways that resemble Hellenistic monograms, usually by placing letters in ligate or overlapping. For example, the METEL on the coin below is expressed by two characters (ME & TEL): [ATTACH=full]1574265[/ATTACH] [INDENT]Q. Caecilius Metellus AR Denarius. Cr. 256/1. Ex FH Rindge (1857-1905) Collection & BMFA Loan (c. 1890-).[/INDENT] Or the TA monogram on this obv.: [ATTACH=full]1574266[/ATTACH] [INDENT]Titurius Sabinus AR Denarius. Crawford 344/1a. Ex JMAL Collection, JP Righetti Collection.[/INDENT] You also see it more often on Roman Provincial Coinage, where it's maybe a bit of a carryover from Hellenistic Greek coinage. Here's one that's a cross-over, RPC and RRC. Does this ornate "S" count as a mongram? [ATTACH=full]1574267[/ATTACH] [INDENT]S. Gaul. T. Pompeius Sexti Filius (?) AE Semis. [URL='https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/507']RPC I Online 507.14[/URL] = Depeyrot, NC I, 130.54 (this coin). Ex P Villemur & Nomus Brasiliano (N. Spinola) Collections [/INDENT] Then again, what do we consider Roman? Here are some that may stretch the definition of Roman Provincial, but there's a case to be made. First two, like those above, have monogram obverses. The third has one on the reverse. (To the extent that they all qualify.) These two types are both included in RPC (the Drachm a recent addition), but their attributions are highly controversial (in multiple ways): [ATTACH=full]1574268[/ATTACH] [INDENT]"Koson" AR Drachm. [URL='https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/1701C']RPC 1701C[/URL] for type. All struck from a single die pair. ANACS encapsulated. Possibly from HJB's batch for which they fought the Romanian government in court? [/INDENT] [ATTACH=full]1574270[/ATTACH] [INDENT]"Koson" AV Stater. [URL='https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/1701A']RPC 1701A[/URL] for type. These also come w/out monograms. NGC encapsulated. Ex Pars Coins / VAuctions.[/INDENT] This coin is now typically dated to the final period of Marc Antony & Cleoptra's Greek/N. African reign. These kind of post-Hellenistic / pre-Provincial coins don't usually make it into RPC. But there's a strong case that it's part of their monetary reforms in Greece to apply the Roman denominational standards. In this case, it may be a Dupondius (or just the Greek equivalent [?], a Diassarion): [ATTACH=full]1574271[/ATTACH] [INDENT]Olympia, Elis AE Dupondius (?), temp. Antony/Cleopatra (late 30's BCE). HGC 5, 544. Ex EP Warren, G Philpsen, RK Morcom, C Morcom, PR Franke Collections.[/INDENT] Here's a solidly Roman Imperial example. Third century. Does the mintmark count? (Lots of similar types out there.) [ATTACH=full]1574272[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1574273[/ATTACH] [INDENT]Probus w/ lightning bolt in the mintmark. (1) Ex Rev Richard J Plant (1928-2020) Coll. (2) Ex Kricheldorf XLI.[/INDENT] And then, more or less, the period that OP was talking about: Late Roman Imperial. Chi-rhos and crosses. The chi-rho would seem to qualify as a monogram by most people's definitions. The cross serves a similar purpose, but does it count? Not really I don't think... [ATTACH=full]1574274[/ATTACH] [INDENT]Thedosius I AE4. Cyzicus. Ex Leu, reportedly from “Old Swiss collection, formed in the 1970s.”[/INDENT] [ATTACH=full]1574275[/ATTACH] [INDENT]Valens from Constantinople (or imitative), [URL='http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.9.cnp.41B.7']RIC 41b.7[/URL] (prototype?). Purchased on eBay for $1.24. [/INDENT] I could keep going with more borderline cases of what might or might not count as a monogram... but I've hit my maximum 10 uploads! And all I've done is raised questions, not really any answers. Waiting to hear more thoughts! It's an interesting topic.[/QUOTE]
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Did Romans and Greeks use monogram before 300s?
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