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<p>[QUOTE=&quot;NewStyleKing, post: 4938130, member: 106483&quot;]The <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=dictator" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=dictator" rel="nofollow">dictator</a> Pesistatos seized power in 561 BC and demoted and by-passed other powerful aristocrats and clans. By the time he died in 528/7 BC <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=66" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=66" rel="nofollow">Athens</a> was a wealthy and strong city and power devolved to <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=his" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=his" rel="nofollow">his</a> sons Hipparchos and Hippias.</p><p><br /></p><p>Whether for aristocratic pride or revenge either for an insult to their sister or even a unrequited love of Hipparchos for Harmodius the scene was set for&nbsp; Harmodius and Aristogeiton&nbsp; to lead a group of Athenians to kill them under the political guise of liberating <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=66" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=66" rel="nofollow">Athens</a> from tyranny..</p><p><br /></p><p>At the Panathenian games the deed was carried out-but not completely. Whilst Hipparchos was stabbed to death Hippias fled. Harmodius was killed by bodyguards and Aristogeiton was taken alive and then tortured to death.</p><p><br /></p><p>Thus the reasons for the killing may not be actually altruistic and what happened next was a stronger and crueler dictatorship&nbsp; under the surviving Hippias that was only ended with Spartan <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?board=17.0" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?board=17.0" rel="nofollow">help</a>. <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1996" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1996" rel="nofollow">Democracy</a> was soon after founded under the reforms of Cleisthenes</p><p><br /></p><p>The motives and intention of the &quot; tyrant killers&quot; are doubtful or have been muddied and their actions didn&#039;t directly lead to liberation from tyranny and even worse it was monarchical militaristic Sparta to whom the credit for liberation must be given.</p><p><br /></p><p>However soon a&nbsp; bronze statue group was commissioned of the Athenian heroes by a sculptor named Atenor and probably placed in the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=agora" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=agora" rel="nofollow">agora</a>. It was subsequently taken as war booty by Xerxes in 480 BC and re-erected in Susa.</p><p><br /></p><p>After the Persian defeat another group statue of the tyrannicides was sculpted by Kritios and Nesiotes to replace it in 477/6 BC</p><p><br /></p><p>It seems that this is the statue that was copied and copied again coming down to us from <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=55&amp;pos=0" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=55&amp;pos=0" rel="nofollow">Roman</a> copies, whilst the Atenor group, which <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=had" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=had" rel="nofollow">had</a> been returned by <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=553" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=553" rel="nofollow">Alexander the Great</a> and placed next to the replacement has been totally lost.</p><p><br /></p><p>Here we come to the coinage that may depict the tyrant killers.</p><p><br /></p><p>On the imitation <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=new%20style" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=new%20style" rel="nofollow">New Style</a> whose <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Mint%20Marks" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Mint%20Marks" rel="nofollow">mint</a> status is unclear despite it having the Athenian <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=ethnic" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=ethnic" rel="nofollow">ethnic</a>, the words O DEMOS (&quot;of the (Athenian) people&quot;) surround the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1857" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1857" rel="nofollow">owl</a> upon overturned <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=amphora" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=amphora" rel="nofollow">amphora</a> and has a single figure symbol in a striking pose.</p><p><br /></p><p>Other claims for this figure have been proposed such as <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1904" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1904" rel="nofollow">Theseus</a> and more popularly <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1902" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1902" rel="nofollow">Perseus</a> but the favourite is Harmodius .</p><p><br /></p><p>It is from the 2nd statue group that the original <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?board=7.0" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?board=7.0" rel="nofollow">identification</a> <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=comes" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=comes" rel="nofollow">comes</a> from , however <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=jongkees" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=jongkees" rel="nofollow">Jongkees</a>, J.H.</p><p>&nbsp;&quot;Notes on the coinage of Athens-V11 O Demos and Atenor&#039;s tyrannoktones&quot;&nbsp; Mnemosyne , third series <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=vol" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=vol" rel="nofollow">Vol</a> 13 phase 2 (1947), seems to favour the unknown Atenor group based on reconstructions from vase and other small ceramic depictions.</p><p><br /></p><p>A post-Sullan <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=new%20style" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=new%20style" rel="nofollow">New style</a> 2 magistrate silver coinage also features the tyrant killers: both of them this time.</p><p><br /></p><p>Whilst the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?board=7.0" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?board=7.0" rel="nofollow">identification</a> of this <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=new%20style" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=new%20style" rel="nofollow">New Style</a> symbol is not in doubt maybe the date allocated and thus the position in the chronology is in error? 2 magistrate coins appear in the immediate run-up to the siege by <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1841" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1841" rel="nofollow">Sulla</a> and another controversial <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=type" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=type" rel="nofollow">type</a> &quot; Kernos&quot; <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=had" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=had" rel="nofollow">had</a> been placed there by Morkholm</p><p><br /></p><p>Thus maybe the 2 tyrant killers Athenian originated <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=new%20style" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=new%20style" rel="nofollow">New style</a> is not post Sullan and then it will mean that an obversed die linked coin &quot; <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1916" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1916" rel="nofollow">Isis</a>&quot; must also be pre-Sullan. This accommodation would be difficult to resolve though, especially since ,in all likely-hood, Mentor appears again as a <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Mint%20Marks" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Mint%20Marks" rel="nofollow">mint</a> magistrate and definitely in <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=a%20post" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=a%20post" rel="nofollow">a post</a> Sullan <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=overstrike" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=overstrike" rel="nofollow">overstrike</a> coin of &quot;<a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1793" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1793" rel="nofollow">Apollo</a> with <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=lyre" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=lyre" rel="nofollow">Lyre</a>&quot;:a <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=type" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=type" rel="nofollow">type</a> only rediscovered in 1975</p><p><br /></p><p>It was <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=jongkees" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=jongkees" rel="nofollow">Jongkees</a> who thought that the O Demos coins must be by Pontic supporters in origin&nbsp; using Atenor&#039;s&nbsp; original grouping and thus the definite pro-Roman coinage of Mentor-Moschion used the other grouping by kritios &amp; Nesiotes.</p><p><br /></p><p>It can be seen that&nbsp; these theories of who are the liberators and who are the people of <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=66" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=66" rel="nofollow">Athens</a> seems to be a stick wielded by both sides and leads us nowhere in the determining of the ownership of the O Demos <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=type" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=type" rel="nofollow">type</a>.</p><p><br /></p><p>Neither does the coin <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&amp;pos=0&amp;open=872" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&amp;pos=0&amp;open=872" rel="nofollow">hoard</a> evidence lead us anywhere. The Cesme <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&amp;pos=0&amp;open=872" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&amp;pos=0&amp;open=872" rel="nofollow">hoard</a> contains Pergamene <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1517" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1517" rel="nofollow">cistophori</a> variously dated as 95-90 BC by the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=boston%20mfa" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=boston%20mfa" rel="nofollow">Boston MFA</a> and 76-67 BC by another source amongst possibly others.</p><p><br /></p><p>If the latter that means that the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&amp;pos=0&amp;open=872" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&amp;pos=0&amp;open=872" rel="nofollow">hoard</a> contained Pergamene <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1517" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1517" rel="nofollow">cistophori</a> produced when the city was back in <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=55&amp;pos=0" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=55&amp;pos=0" rel="nofollow">Roman</a> control so must have been buried by someone during the 3rd Mithridatic war in <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=55&amp;pos=0" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=55&amp;pos=0" rel="nofollow">Roman</a> controlled Cesme.</p><p><br /></p><p>It doesn&#039;t stop the O Demos and other coins in the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&amp;pos=0&amp;open=872" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=872&amp;pos=0&amp;open=872" rel="nofollow">hoard</a> being war loot: the Bityhnian <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tetradrachm" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tetradrachm" rel="nofollow">tetradrachm</a> of Nicomedes ll- it is probably war loot and so is the Mithradates <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=104" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=104" rel="nofollow">portrait</a> / drinking pegasos piece dating to 89/88 BC probably minted in <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1032" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1032" rel="nofollow">Pontos</a> or the Bosporus.</p><p><br /></p><p>If the motives of the 2 tyrant killers and the associated coinage are difficult to resolve than it will be no surprise that their famous <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=55&amp;pos=0" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=55&amp;pos=0" rel="nofollow">Roman</a> copy group statue in Naples is proving to be so too.</p><p><br /></p><p>The statue is a reconstruction both of original pieces and in the imagination of the <a href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=7521.0" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=7521.0" rel="nofollow">conservator</a>. A more likely pose of Harmdios has been mooted which seems more in tune with the O Demos pose.</p><p><br /></p><p>The truth is so ephemeral, try to touch it and it disappears !</p><p><br /></p><p><img src="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=91572.0;attach=220396;image" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" />[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>

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