Define a “cleaned” coin

I agree with the point you are making, but I disagree with the words you chose.

Coins in both of your categories have been “cleaned,” so calling only undamaged coins as “cleaned” can only cause confusion. Likewise, “harshly cleaned” implies that someone agressively cleaned a coin, causing severe damage. A coin with a couple small harlines from a gentle wipe with q-tip was not harsly cleaned. A coin scrubbed with a wire brush has been harshly cleaned.

I think just “properly cleaned” and “improperly cleaned” should be the terms used. They eliminate all ambiguity inherent with using just the terms “cleaned” and “harshly cleaned.”

And since you bring up arguing with a dictionary:

Harshly: “In a harsh manner; severely.”

Harsh:

1. Unpleasantly rough to the touch or other senses.
2. Severe or cruel.

 

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My three shiny silver dollars turned dark from a short time in a wooden box from the Holy Land. Is there no way to get them shiny again without being called "cleaned"? Does the darkening lessen the value?

 

Unfortunately, yes.

Current market conditions would call that tarnish rather than toning. I, however, like the appearance of light tarnishing... to me it is toning. others will agree..... Its really just semantics.

 

A Q-TIP can be harsh to a proof coin!

 

When I have a few Kennedy survival coins I just put them in Connoisseurs Silver jewelry cleaner. And to my surprise they look almost uncirculated. Remember these are survival coins and some look real bad and get them at a good price, after dipping in the jewelry cleaner I was amazed. I think people hoarded these silver coins because the mint was removing the silver from coins and most look uncirculated.

 

This is considered dipping a coin.... and should only be done if you want the coin to lose its numismatic value.

What you are left with after a dip is a 90% silver bullion piece.

 

This is completely false. Properly dipping coins not only doesn’t destroy numismatic value but it often increases it

 

That's my issue. For some reason we tend to like a coin until the TPGs tell us it's cleaned. What's changed about the coin?

 

You can still like and enjoy a coin that has been cleaned. For many dates a cleaned coin may be the only option for the average collector without bottomless pockets. The important part is learning to identify cleaned coins so the price paid is appropriate to the quality.

 

OK I'll bite....Only through deception does it increase the value to it's dishonest seller.

Numismatic value is not what somebody will buy the coin for on ebay. Its an entirely different valuation.... ever try to get a dipped coin certified by CAC?

 

Dipping isn’t deception and yes there are dipped coins with CAC stickers.

 

Yes I understand what you are saying but as I mentioned in my opinion these to me are not, or I would not have these graded. I bet I could sell some of these coins separately on EBAY and get at least $10.00 because they still have the original mint features on them. I assume these sellers buy large junk bags and just roll them up without looking and turn a quick profit. some of the coins look very bad before the jewelry cleaner and am quite satisfied with the results. who knows what will happen with our paper money a nice silver half dollar may be very helpful in the future. I also collect limited edition graded signed silver pr,sp,ms A.S.E. sets and limited edition silver coins of all mints. I like Mercanti, Moy, Cleveland, Jones ECT.

 

I still like mine.

I guess that is why they let light cleanings slide; they don’t meet their criteria for “harsh.”

 

All minted coins have foreign material on them. It is usually a very thin layer of oil from the workings of the machinery striking them. It actually helps to preserve the mint luster and original red on copper/bronze/Cu-plated coins.
If there is a coin over 200 years old with any white silver showing, it has been "cleaned" at one time or another. There were no plastics in which to protect them - they were either put in a paper envelope or in a coin cabinet. Either way, they were exposed to the air, and the chemicals present in paper or wood and velvet/satin/silk.

 

If you see something on a coin, you call it cleaned. That something you see can be called damage. If you see no damage on a coin, you don't call it cleaned.

Now, let's talk about the dictionary definition of luster...

 

You are stating what is being observed/declared, and making my case that the TPG are subjectively declaring previously TPG graded coins "CLEANED". The coins I've discussed were removed from slabs, sent to a competitive TPG, returned as "CLEANED". Resubmitted back to original TPG, again receiving a grade.

I've had many coins "cross-slabbed", and only once have I received a MS DETAILS "HARSHLY CLEANED" Double Eagle returned that had been previously "slabbed" as 1906 MS62 PL $20 with beautiful uniform luster, virtually without without bag marks or bag rub.

I had seen another rare date Double Eagle slabbed AU DETAILS HARSHLY CLEANED, that was sold by Heritage as AU5? grade. I posted it in a thread discussing the value of TPG "CLEANED" declared coins where I stated the coin would be sold, as it was for more than twice melt value.

We're in agreement that virtually all PM "antiquated" coins have been "CLEANED" at some time. One would expect on a used item being sold, a brief statement as to why/evidence of the declaration. If damage is evident, possibly the declaration is improper.

I've several perfectly acceptable vehicles that were purchased as "flood" and "hail" damaged. "Altered-fields" or "hair-lines" damage, etc., may be acceptable with a proper grade, as done by SEGS and others. The disparity may need to be altered/adjudicated as some very expensive damages are being declared. The unacceptable scratch declaration, as I recall in the PCI? litigation, by a firm known for scratch? acceptance, was believed quite expensive.

JMHO

 

Of course not...that's the realm of the Magic Eraser...

 

Thats fine with me, as long as silver price rises it will be worth the effort