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<p>[QUOTE="HandsomeToad, post: 410814, member: 12965"]Since you took the time to ask the questions, I will take the time to answer but the only reason I didn't provide all of this information in the beginning, was in the interest of keeping it short and the the <u>POINT</u>. </p><p> </p><p><br /></p><p> </p><p>Exactly! The first thing I must do is to provide the definition of DECEITFUL:</p><p> </p><p><font size="2">2.</font><font size="2">intended to deceive; <u><b>misleading</b></u>; fraudulent: a deceitful action. </font></p><p> </p><p>The key word is MISLEADING. The listing describes the coin as being VERY RARE and when you click on the link to CoinFacts, which variety is listed as being VERY RARE? The only one - C-2 - and when you click on that link, what do you see? A coin with the identical rim cud as the one being sold. As I said in my original post, the seller never once claims what variety it is but uses INFERENCES that gets buyers to think it's a C-2. That is deceitful in nature!</p><p> </p><p><br /></p><p> </p><p>I sent the link to several friends who also confirmed what I knew, it isn't a C-2 so I collaborated my suspisions and the friends I sent it to, know more about EAC's than I will probably ever know.</p><p> </p><p><br /></p><p> </p><p>When looking at the pictures available on CoinFacts, there is only one with a rim cud on it like the coin being sold and it's the C-2. Again, that is deceitful in nature! Now, if you will look at the C-9 on CoinFacts, it doesn't have a rim cud and no reference to one. As to it being possible that a C-9 has a rim cud similar to the one being sold, I thought I was very clear on that FACT? I said the one being sold is a LDS C-9 (Late Die State C-9), so that means the one being sold IS a C-9 and NOT a C-2 but the seller never defines the variety. Again, deceitful in nature!</p><p> </p><p><br /></p><p> </p><p>None of the above and I'm not complaining but rather, informing others of how a listing can fall within the grey area of being legit but misleading at the same time. It's called The power of Suggestion! The seller claims the coin is VERY RARE and provides a link for us to confirm his claims and in that link, we see one that is VERY RARE and click on it, to see what appears to be the coin being sold and the potential buyer's pulse quickens, thinking about getting it at a "steal" and the buyer doesn't notice stuff doesn't match up, especially those who don't know what to look for, which is the majority of peeps on Ebay. Everyone here should know that feeling you get when you run across a RARE coin on Ebay? And in that moment, the potential buyers brain isn't working correctly and they don't catch it isn't that coin and they get SUCKERED in!</p><p> </p><p><br /></p><p> </p><p>I am usually informative with my messages to sellers or I will ask them questions, where I know the answer will prove the coin in question is what I think/know it to be. Here is an example:</p><p> </p><p><a href="http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335874456&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D150278235081%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AX%3AAAQ%3AUS%3A1123" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335874456&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D150278235081%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AX%3AAAQ%3AUS%3A1123" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150278235081&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123</a></p><p> </p><p>I messaged the seller and asked if it was a Plain or Lettered Edge variety?</p><p> </p><p>In their reply, they said it was a Plain Edge variety (duh - counterfeit). So I replied with this message:</p><p> </p><p><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><i>Then it is a counterfeit:</i></font></font></p><p> </p><p><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><span style="color: #0066cc"><a href="http://mhtml:{7FF92132-DBB3-44F2-AD3D-FDC60A444E53}mid://00003359/!x-usc:http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_dollars/1804_dollars/1804_Draped_Bust_Silver_Dollar.htm" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://mhtml:{7FF92132-DBB3-44F2-AD3D-FDC60A444E53}mid://00003359/!x-usc:http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_dollars/1804_dollars/1804_Draped_Bust_Silver_Dollar.htm" rel="nofollow"><i>http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_dollars/1804_dollars/1804_Draped_Bust_Silver_Dollar.htm</i></a></span></font></font></p><p> </p><p><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><i>George <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie1" alt=":)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /></i></font></font></p><p> </p><p>With that reply, I stated it was a counterfeit but I also provided proof but the seller had to go look to find the truth out for themselves, which, if you go and look, you will see there was a Plain Edge variety (#9 on list) and it was a overstamped 1857 Swiss (Bern) Shooting Thaler and upon clicking on that link, they would see their coin was not that coin! This seller is a good seller because she pulled the auction as soon as she figured out it was a counterfeit! :thumb:</p><p> </p><p><br /></p><p> </p><p>What is there to report? The auction is legit and does not violate Ebay Policies but it is deceptive and that was the point of this post. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie2" alt=";)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /></p><p> </p><p>What I will usually do is inform the buyer of what they just bought. Here's a recent example:</p><p> </p><p><a href="http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335874456&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D380050663093%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AX%3AAAQ%3AUS%3A1123" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335874456&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D380050663093%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AX%3AAAQ%3AUS%3A1123" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380050663093&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123</a></p><p> </p><p style="text-align: left"><i>Hey Bob, </i></p><p><br /></p><p style="text-align: left"><i>Are you Hobo? I noticed you have written a guide on Counterfeits so I would have to assume you knew the Massachusetts Cent you just bought was a counterfeit and a friend of mine collects counterfeits and I told him about the cent, so I was wondering if you are he? <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie8" alt=":D" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> </i></p><p><br /></p><p style="text-align: left"><i>George <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie1" alt=":)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /></i></p><p><br /></p><p style="text-align: left">Here was my earlier message to the seller:</p><p><br /></p><p><i>You wanted more proof it isn't authentic: </i></p><p> </p><p><i><a href="http://www.coinfacts.com/colonial_coins/massachusetts_coppers/ma_copper_coins.htm" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.coinfacts.com/colonial_coins/massachusetts_coppers/ma_copper_coins.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.coinfacts.com/colonial_coins/massachusetts_coppers/ma_copper_coins.htm</a></i></p><p> </p><p><i>Here's why yours is a counterfeit: </i></p><p> </p><p><i>Lettering looks handwritten instead of typeface. </i></p><p><i>Mound where Indian stands is rounded, should be squarish in shape. </i></p><p><i>The Indian's attire/dress is all wrong. </i></p><p><i>The two feathers are wrong. </i></p><p><i>The bow is wrong. </i></p><p><i>The Star in front of the Indian is not in the correct place. </i></p><p><i>The branch & arrows in the Eagle's claws are all wrong. </i></p><p><i>The 7 in the date is not angled correctly. </i></p><p> </p><p><i>You need to inform the gentleman this came from that it is a crude counterfeit and must be sold as such. </i></p><p> </p><p><i>George <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie1" alt=":)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /></i></p><p> </p><p>I'm not sure if the seller would have given a refund up front or not, without my interference, but long story short, the seller gave the buyer a full refund and the buyer is happy, and the seller would still like to sell the coin but as a counterfeit, not the real deal. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie1" alt=":)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /></p><p> </p><p><br /></p><p> </p><p>See the above and see if your thinking is different now? :whistle:</p><p> </p><p>Ribbit <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie1" alt=":)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /></p><p> </p><p>Ps: In going through my messages I can't find the one to the seller of the OP coin so it is possible I never messaged the seller but the deceitfulness of the listing is still valid. I'm still looking for the correspondence but it may be I only discussed it with friends and never got around to messaging the seller. I message so many sellers about "problems" that it is very possible for me to have forgotten to message this one? :goofer:</p><p> </p><p>Pps: Is it possible the seller thinks it's a C-2? Yes but also No! If the buyer thinks it's a C-2 then why didn't they claim that? They never made that claim and claiming something is VERY RARE isn't deceitful in-of-itself, but the way in which this seller organized everything, gives every appearance of being intentionally deceitful but the seller doesn't have to have a clue as to the real identity of their coin for deceit not to be a factor, ignorance is the best source of deceit so unintentional deceit is possible and rampant on Ebay.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="HandsomeToad, post: 410814, member: 12965"]Since you took the time to ask the questions, I will take the time to answer but the only reason I didn't provide all of this information in the beginning, was in the interest of keeping it short and the the [U]POINT[/U]. Exactly! The first thing I must do is to provide the definition of DECEITFUL: [SIZE=2]2.[/SIZE][SIZE=2]intended to deceive; [U][B]misleading[/B][/U]; fraudulent: a deceitful action. [/SIZE] The key word is MISLEADING. The listing describes the coin as being VERY RARE and when you click on the link to CoinFacts, which variety is listed as being VERY RARE? The only one - C-2 - and when you click on that link, what do you see? A coin with the identical rim cud as the one being sold. As I said in my original post, the seller never once claims what variety it is but uses INFERENCES that gets buyers to think it's a C-2. That is deceitful in nature! I sent the link to several friends who also confirmed what I knew, it isn't a C-2 so I collaborated my suspisions and the friends I sent it to, know more about EAC's than I will probably ever know. When looking at the pictures available on CoinFacts, there is only one with a rim cud on it like the coin being sold and it's the C-2. Again, that is deceitful in nature! Now, if you will look at the C-9 on CoinFacts, it doesn't have a rim cud and no reference to one. As to it being possible that a C-9 has a rim cud similar to the one being sold, I thought I was very clear on that FACT? I said the one being sold is a LDS C-9 (Late Die State C-9), so that means the one being sold IS a C-9 and NOT a C-2 but the seller never defines the variety. Again, deceitful in nature! None of the above and I'm not complaining but rather, informing others of how a listing can fall within the grey area of being legit but misleading at the same time. It's called The power of Suggestion! The seller claims the coin is VERY RARE and provides a link for us to confirm his claims and in that link, we see one that is VERY RARE and click on it, to see what appears to be the coin being sold and the potential buyer's pulse quickens, thinking about getting it at a "steal" and the buyer doesn't notice stuff doesn't match up, especially those who don't know what to look for, which is the majority of peeps on Ebay. Everyone here should know that feeling you get when you run across a RARE coin on Ebay? And in that moment, the potential buyers brain isn't working correctly and they don't catch it isn't that coin and they get SUCKERED in! I am usually informative with my messages to sellers or I will ask them questions, where I know the answer will prove the coin in question is what I think/know it to be. Here is an example: [URL="http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335874456&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D150278235081%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AX%3AAAQ%3AUS%3A1123"]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150278235081&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123[/URL] I messaged the seller and asked if it was a Plain or Lettered Edge variety? In their reply, they said it was a Plain Edge variety (duh - counterfeit). So I replied with this message: [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][I]Then it is a counterfeit:[/I][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc][URL="mhtml:{7FF92132-DBB3-44F2-AD3D-FDC60A444E53}mid://00003359/!x-usc:http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_dollars/1804_dollars/1804_Draped_Bust_Silver_Dollar.htm"][I]http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_dollars/1804_dollars/1804_Draped_Bust_Silver_Dollar.htm[/I][/URL][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][I]George :)[/I][/SIZE][/FONT] With that reply, I stated it was a counterfeit but I also provided proof but the seller had to go look to find the truth out for themselves, which, if you go and look, you will see there was a Plain Edge variety (#9 on list) and it was a overstamped 1857 Swiss (Bern) Shooting Thaler and upon clicking on that link, they would see their coin was not that coin! This seller is a good seller because she pulled the auction as soon as she figured out it was a counterfeit! :thumb: What is there to report? The auction is legit and does not violate Ebay Policies but it is deceptive and that was the point of this post. ;) What I will usually do is inform the buyer of what they just bought. Here's a recent example: [URL="http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335874456&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D380050663093%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AX%3AAAQ%3AUS%3A1123"]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380050663093&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123[/URL] [LEFT][I]Hey Bob, [/I][/LEFT] [LEFT][I]Are you Hobo? I noticed you have written a guide on Counterfeits so I would have to assume you knew the Massachusetts Cent you just bought was a counterfeit and a friend of mine collects counterfeits and I told him about the cent, so I was wondering if you are he? :D [/I][/LEFT] [LEFT][I]George :)[/I][/LEFT] [LEFT]Here was my earlier message to the seller:[/LEFT] [I]You wanted more proof it isn't authentic: [/I] [I][URL]http://www.coinfacts.com/colonial_coins/massachusetts_coppers/ma_copper_coins.htm[/URL][/I] [I]Here's why yours is a counterfeit: [/I] [I]Lettering looks handwritten instead of typeface. [/I] [I]Mound where Indian stands is rounded, should be squarish in shape. [/I] [I]The Indian's attire/dress is all wrong. [/I] [I]The two feathers are wrong. [/I] [I]The bow is wrong. [/I] [I]The Star in front of the Indian is not in the correct place. [/I] [I]The branch & arrows in the Eagle's claws are all wrong. [/I] [I]The 7 in the date is not angled correctly. [/I] [I]You need to inform the gentleman this came from that it is a crude counterfeit and must be sold as such. [/I] [I]George :)[/I] I'm not sure if the seller would have given a refund up front or not, without my interference, but long story short, the seller gave the buyer a full refund and the buyer is happy, and the seller would still like to sell the coin but as a counterfeit, not the real deal. :) See the above and see if your thinking is different now? :whistle: Ribbit :) Ps: In going through my messages I can't find the one to the seller of the OP coin so it is possible I never messaged the seller but the deceitfulness of the listing is still valid. I'm still looking for the correspondence but it may be I only discussed it with friends and never got around to messaging the seller. I message so many sellers about "problems" that it is very possible for me to have forgotten to message this one? :goofer: Pps: Is it possible the seller thinks it's a C-2? Yes but also No! If the buyer thinks it's a C-2 then why didn't they claim that? They never made that claim and claiming something is VERY RARE isn't deceitful in-of-itself, but the way in which this seller organized everything, gives every appearance of being intentionally deceitful but the seller doesn't have to have a clue as to the real identity of their coin for deceit not to be a factor, ignorance is the best source of deceit so unintentional deceit is possible and rampant on Ebay.[/QUOTE]
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