Dealers: Is it worth it to travel all over the country for shows?

Have a few questions. I'm not a dealer and not aspiring to be one, as most of you know. I just spoke with one the other day and they said they would be traveling to a show in Texas. They have a lot of inventory but a relatively small B&M shop. Out of my own curiosity, how well do you guys do on average traveling long distance? I know there are several here that travel all over the place.

It seems to me the travel and costs involved would mean you would have to sell quite a bit just to break even. Obviously you can't break even at every show and still cover the mortgage at the end of the month. Nobody has to give exact figures. I was simply wondering how well it can go and how bad it can go. Does the average $$ return make it worth it? It must or people wouldn't do it. I'm guessing part of it is about going to fresh territory to find new customers?

What year or stretch of years was the best time for you guys?

Is there a part of the country you look forward to visiting the most because of great business there?

 

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I travel the eastern US to do shows; from the coast of Maine down to Florida and out toward Pittsburgh and even sometimes Chicago. I don't travel all the time and some months spend very few nights away from home. Travel to shows is about more than simply buying and selling. It is also about meeting new contacts, putting a face to an email and making certain others know you will be around for a deal. Attending shows can cost quite a bit and there are times when one can't help but to lose money for a month or several months in a row.

Baltimore always seems to be a good show and the ANA (main show) and FUN (winter FUN) generally do well for most folks. Other shows can be sketchy (Philadelphia and CoinFest) while some never seem to pull off an economically viable event (Pittsburgh). My take from these shows is that even if I don't make much money from the shows, I have met people and perhaps strengthened business ties that will help in the future. This is definitely not an easy way to make a living if you strive to treat people fairly.

 

I forgot I posted this. Great reply. That's what I was wondering.

I thought this topic would have generated more replies.

 

Have you asked Penny Lady? It appears she does this.

 

Most dealers I know travel all across the country to shows. Most don't set up tables, but just buy and sell. I think the vast majority you see set up at shows are those that are relatively close to the venue, with a few exceptions. The couple who own the largest shop in my area travel to a dozen or so a year and use it as a vacation. Another dealer I know travels to over 50 shows yearly and has greatly expanded his business in the process.
Guy

 

The vacation idea is probably the way that many deal with the costs. You can often write-off a bunch of vacation expenses as business expenses and it would be true. You've got to love our tax laws.

 

The dealer from my lcs was raving how well he did at the previous show. So I'm guessing they can make pretty good money. But that also depends on inventory, prices and of course how the dealer acts/ treats others around him.

 

If you are writing about a family vacation, then I would have to state that from my observations this would be rare. Most dealers spend the great bulk of the day conducting business, which can include up to ten hours on the bourse floor, auction lot viewing, attendance at part of or all of an evening auction, rudimentary accounting, emails to clients and business dinners. This can leave little, if any, time to be with the family. Additionally, most coin people would prefer not to travel with their families when they are going to and from a show since this is the time when they are most vulnerable to being hit.

 

I've been attending the Whitman Baltimore show for as long as I can remember. Dealers come from all over the lower forty eight states. I always see the Penny Lady there. I've grown old with some of the dealers at the show. They're there every year. Airfare,lodging & food aren't cheap. Some of dealers rent large combination safes, add the cost of tables and locations (some rent for >$2000.00 for the show). Some dealers at the show are most always busy. I don't know how the numbers add up for some of the dealers but they come back year after year so I guess they're making a living.

The "most prestigous summer antique show in the country" is held at the Baltimore convention center. I've seen dealers there from the lower 48, Alaska and Europe.
http://www.baltimoresummerantiques.com

 

Unless a dealer has inventory well into the six figures, plus a checkbook ready to write into the five figures, I don't know how it would be economically viable to spend the show boarse fee, the $60 plus motel fee, $100 and up each way in traveling costs, and the security concerns. One advantage I have noticed as a dealer is material gets offered to you at dealer prices, whereas vest pocket dealers can get there late and are outsiders in terms of advantageous deals.

 

I'm sure for some it's a lot more expensive than that. The Hyatt hotel connected to the convention center isn't cheap and airfare from California isn't cheap either. I know a lot of the dealers seeks out very high priced restaurants. I overhead a couple of them seeking deals on Priceline.

 

At the fall show we put on here in Rapid City, SD 90% of our dealers who attend drive 500 miles or more to get here. Our problem is getting the dealers from South Dakota to come to our show. The only dealer from South Dakota that comes to our show is Spearfish Coins.Some of the out of state dealers bring their family and some do not. I have taken some dealers trout fishing after the show also. One dealer from 3 states away has been coming to our show for over 7 years now had now has a client list of over 100 people from Rapid City that buy off his web site. One dealer last fall told me he sold more in Rapid City than he did in Baltimore and Florida put together. Small shows are great places to buy inventory also. My wife and I take a table at all our shows even though We are not dealers, just for a chance to buy some great and rare coins. We also buy a table to support our club.

 

But you have to make enough to pay the expenses so you can write them off. Sometimes the bills are such that that isn't possible. If some of the bills from the convention center for the past ANA show were paid it wouldn't be. I was talking with a book dealer this past weekend who attended the ANA show in Philly. His books are packed into boxes about the size of milk crates and are loaded into his van. He had somewhere around 60 crates for the Philly show. He gets there and has to let the union people do his unloading, it's the rules. They unload the crates to a cart and roll them over to his table. Took twenty to thirty minutes. The next day the Convention Center gave him a bill for the moving expenses......$7,000. And he wasn't the only dealer to get such a bill, there were quite a few others. Wizard, the coin supplies dealer, got the highest bill that I know of for $13,000. Bills like that you can't pay and make a living, even if you can write them off.

 

And this sounds like vacation to me

 

It is all sales and marketing expenses that you can write off from your 2012 taxes. It can off-set all other sales profit for the entire year. I'm sure that is how some dealers make it work for them. It may also be interesting to know the amount of transactions that aren't on the books but I no one is stupid enough to touch that point.

 

I was speaking with Claire, a dealer set up at the ANA. She said state and city taxes were considerable therefore she had to charge what she did. I had emailed the Philly tax department to try to find the law on transactions and they just directed me to their site, they did not give me personal elucidation on what the requirements were for paying taxes.

And on the off-books transactions, it is very difficult for the authorities to identify these unless they are zeroing in on a particular business entity and carefully looking at transactions though the computers and software to interdict fraud are getting better.

Let's say you get a big upgrade on coins, doubling your investment, how would the authorities know? You crack out coins out of their holders and they get big upgrades, netting you big money. They would not know unless they did a really thorough audit.

 

Doug touched on this, and there has been a series of letters in NN recently talking about dealers and shows. It appears a great many dealers only justify going to shows to get access to other dealer's fresh inventory and to buy from dealers and the public. It makes sense, you have a list of clients wanting certain coins, and the better you can fulfill those wishes, the greater profit you make and the better relationship you maintain with your clients.

Many dealers referenced this when explaining why they don't want to be forced to attend Sunday days of a show. To them, the show is pretty much over Friday.