Dealers and stolen coins.

About 20 years ago, some coins were stolen in Chicago. The authorities went to all the dealers in the Chicago area looking for them. They ended up finding them at my local coin dealer.

What do dealers do to make sure they are not buying stolen coins, and what kind of trouble can they get into if they are caught trying to sell them, even if they had no idea they were stolen? I know that this particular dealer asks for an ID for someone he doesn't know, but that does not eliminate the chances of buying stolen goods.

 

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Is this the case where the coins were listed on a stolen artwork site that led to their discovery? (I think there were three coins - perhaps all British- that were found either at three different coin shops or in three different auctions. Sorry but I cannot remember the details.)

There are a handful of web sites or registers where stolen coins can be listed. That works fairly well for slabbed coins (with serial numbers) that are still in the slab and for super rare coins but it is not nearly as effective for generic and raw coins. It would be prudent for a dealer to check these sources before buying very rare or very expensive coins. He should also record all pertinent information regarding the seller - drivers license info, license plate of vehicle (if available), perhaps even get a thumbprint. It would probably also be a good idea to save video from security cameras of every major transaction.

I doubt a dealer would get into trouble for unknowingly selling a stolen coin. How would the cops prove the dealer knew the coin was stolen? But if it happened several times it would make it easier for the cops to show a pattern of the dealer selling stolen coins.

Hock shops (aka pawns shops) are required to record identification of everyone they buy from or loan money to and they are also required to hold the property for a certain amount of time (30 days in most places I think) before disposing of it. Whenever there is a robbery or burglary the cops will check the local hock shops looking for the stolen goods. If the stolen items are found in the hock shop the police automatically confiscate them.

The bottom line is if you buy stolen property the police can confiscate it from you and you are SOL.

 

What would ELIMINATE the chances other then closing up. All you can do is minimize your risk at best.

 

so how did that turn out? did you beat the dealer with a stick? if ou let me know i can cherrypick the hell out of him

 

I worked for a pawn shop for a while last year. The man comes in, looking for stolen material -- burglary or daughter's boyfriend, it doesn't matter -- and we go through the recent purchases. As in many states, we hold for 30 days, get ID, typically a driver's licence. He finds the items. The owner asks how he wants to handle it. "???" He wants the material back. "Well... as evidence in a crime, after we call the police and after the trial, you can get it back from them.... Or you can work with us on this, get it back now and handle it yourself from there..." Nope, not worth it. "OK." That was about a year ago. The items are probably still in the evidence locker.

Appeals to guilt pre-suppose an actual experience of guilt, but with some people, you know they never felt guilty about anything; they're just yanking your chain.

 

Personally we have forms we have to file with our local city every day. We have to fill out a description of what we are buying and if possibile attach a picture. We also require a picture of the sellers valid state ID and a thumbprint. The city also mandates that we hold anything we buy through the front door for a period of 7 days. After the 7 day period has elapsed the items are free and clear for us to do as we wish with them.

You would be surprised how many people give you their thumbprint and photo ID with stolen goods. We get several friendly visits from our local PD each year looking for items that we have turned in. The police are friendly to us because they know we play by the rules and there is really no way of knowing if an item presented to us is stolen or not. If we still have the item they take it and provide us with a receipt for the item and a case number. From time to time we get family members who come in looking for stolen items. These cases get tricky because a lot of the time they don't want to file charges against the family member who stole the items they just want their items back. I have been called names a few times because when I explain that without a police report they must buy the item back at what I paid for it (that's pretty generous on our end). I'm not sure why but some people get it in their mind that we are committing a crime for unknowingly buying this stuff. It was presented to me for sale and the person jumped through all of our hoops then there really isn't much we can do.

 

will wonders never cease?

 

Is that an Indiana law, or an Indianapolis law? Up here they don't do all that. I was at a shop last year when some guy came in. The owner of the shop asked for an ID. The guy had a Kentucky ID and a fishy story. The dealer offered him 160 bucks for his stuff. He usually writes a check. The bank is next door, but it was Sunday. The guy asked for cash. The dealer said no, but after another fishy story, he gave the man cash.
I don't think the dealer really cared if the stuff was stolen or not.

 

We are technically in the city of Lawrence which is a suburb of Indianapolis. It has it's own police department, mayor, and set of laws regarding how we are to buy "second hand" items. I do believe that their laws almost mirror Indianapolis's laws.

I'd make sure to have him check and see about your local laws. I know here that not having a second hand dealers license or getting caught not playing by the rules can cause hefty fines. I think here first offense is $75 and second offense is $2,500.

 

Does the same laws go for your regular customers? The two dealers I go to both know me. When I sell, they just give me the money and I'm on my way.

 

If they sell us something we have to do the paperwork... no matter who it is. The only exceptions are other dealers who's information and tax information we have on file.

 

Thanks for the info LD.

 

Hobo this is true unless you are good at keeping secrets and "holding" onto something at home in a safe. And arise no suspicion. Then uncle sam's statue of limitations kick into effect. Works kind of the same way with stolen land I've heard for example if you stay on someone elses land for 5 years & can prove it. Without their knowledge (as in they during that time had never shown up once) You inherit said property.

But yes Bottom line, you usually always get caught or will end up being caught (and if it's unintentional then ouch)

 

You cant think about that in this business. That's something you don't worry about unless you know the person stole them.

 

If you were the one who stole the property and once it was discovered and the investigation began the statute of limitations begins. Then if you don't get caught before it runs out you can avoid prosecution. But the stolen items are still confiscated and returned to the owner, he still holds title to them. And as for squating on someone elses property, you can establish an easement and a right to use, but that doesn't mean you can claim ownership of the property. We have to watch that with a piece of property we own. Years ago the city had an easement for a roadway through it and it saw a moderate amount of use. But we have in our abstract the paperwork where the easement was deeded back over to the previous owner. The problem is the roadway is still there and people still use it. So every so often we close down access to the roadway so that a right of way easement is not created.

 

Hobo and Conder are both right. For land, both an easement and total loss of title of the land can be created by others use. The legal term as adverse possession. The classic example is someone puts up a fence on your property, mows the grass, pays taxes, etc for a period of years. After a certain period the original owner has lost his title to that land through adverse possession. The other case is people use the land for a certain purpose, but generally do not treat the land as their own. A way of thinking about it is they treat the land as if it is public land, with use rights to everyone. Again, after a period of years this will create an implied easement, which the owner will not be allowed to stop. My friend bought a house in which people used as a makeshift alley, through his driveway and attaching to the driveway behind. He was sued when he closed it off and luckily was able to have the original owner prove that this only started 4.5 years before, short of the state's adverse possession law for implied easements. I think he got lucky by 6 months.

With land you need to be very sure what is happening, and make sure others aren't doing something without your permission for long, or it may get taken out of your control.

 

Is that also referred to as "squatter's rights"?

 

Yep. It is old English common law that is in force in the US. Each state has different rules and statutes, that is why I didn't really get into how long someone has to use the land, what it constitutes, etc.

 

Thanks. I remember this being in the news a lot during the sixties when hippies would take over abandoned buildings and farm land for communes and claim squatter's rights.