Crazy Boss- More rose throns and oil-1909 S

I said it before in another thread, you're getting good at this. You're not leaving the coin in the oil for months or forbid years on end but rather just long enough to soften-up the grime so you could carefully pick away at it with a fresh thorn, then X-off the oil from the surface. As far as whether the coin will slab or be bagged for cleaning, remember, this is TPG market grading. And you don't get looser or more forgiving standards than that. Overall, good job, sound techniques. IMO.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

The blotchy uneven color to the obverse in the first before image is what makes be think it was cleaned long ago. The color looks too light in the open fields. I'm thinking these areas were once much darker. Possibly someone took a rag after it before it went into an album. In the after images it looks too clean for a coin with that amount of wear. In my opinion it wont slab at PCGS.

 

By the way, it's an Indian cent.:smile And I believe Boss said it already was in a PCGS holder, so I think it won't be too difficult to get it back in a PCGS holder should he choose to.

 

I wonder if the grading services read these threads. It may help them on their "cleaned" grading.

 

Many old coins received wear and have no grime on them. My dealer has tons of large cents EF or so that look like this. Estimates are that some 80% of raw coins have been cleaned at one point in their lifetime. Question is what do they look like now after their patina comes back. I again reassert my position that the cleaned responses would have been different if I showed the after images (without Blue Ribbon) and said "grade this coin". I won't submit this coin as is. I will tone down in sulfur flip. Idhair- I am not that worried if it grades, though I am confident it will. It looked ugly to me before. First coin I ever submitted actually. I will give it several months in a sulfur flip (old one) unoiled. I suggest people do a search on the NGC boards (Collectors Society) if you disagree with this technique. Thanks to others for complements- especially eddiespin- didn't expect that.

 

Yes, Charmy it was in a PCGS EF 40 holder. If the coin was cleaned it was like 60 years ago or so. My grandmother used to tell me not to touch the face of it with my hands as a little kid. She knew not to mess with coins. She told me to be very careful with this coin. That's why I wasn't gonna touch this coin till I was sure I knew what I was doing. If I had keep only one coin in my collection it would be this one. Even over my 1872 PCGS 64 RB.

 

Thanks. I fixed it.

 

Seeing the photos and hearing your technique is believing, Boss. I don't think the surfaces of this coin are going to get into the trouble mine did, principally because you didn't soak the coin nearly as long, and you X'ed off the oil when you were done. Remember, I just rinsed mine under warm, running water. And I'll just bet when you pm me that photo of the coin in 20 years from now, it's going to look just fine.

 

I think it will take only a couple months to retone since it's not that much lighter.

 

I think you did a nice job at conserving the coin and you've paid your dues to the learning column....it's paid off for you. Your techniques work well and you know exactly how to achieve your end-goal.

I'm no Indian expert, but I agree with Charmy. I see nothing to indicate this coin was improperly cleaned at any point. However, before resubmitting, I would retone it using the window sill method. On an EF coin, it certainly won't hurt and it should smoothen the patina.

 

OK, dumb question time, can't he just sandwich the coin in corrugated cardboard, wouldn't that hasten the toning?

I'm not finished. What do you mean by sulfur flip? Are you referring to something special, or just a regular cardboard/mylar 2X2?

 

Question. I've read here that if you clean a coin, you may expose hidden issues that were not visible before, thus advisable not to do so. I've also read that "doctoring" coins to hide flaws is unacceptable. Wouldn't cleaning constitute a more "honest" assessment of the coins' true condition since trying to hide flaws would be wrong? Should it be that as long as the coin looks "natural" (while it's hiding it's flaws) that's ok? If so,maybe one could bury the cleaned coin in his backyard for some period of time thus allowing nature's elements to redefine it, dig it up and then properly "conserve" it, and now you have one that is more "naturally" hiding it's flaws. I am exaggerating but my point is that this whole cleaned/not cleaned thing seems extremely subjective. Maybe we need a coin "Pope" (and only one), to make the final determination.

 

Eddie- I posted somewhere else about your 15 year oil story- you rinse with warm soapy water- that would cause coagulation of the oil (oil should only be removed with solvent- acetone/xylene, etc..). Oil and water don't mix. I think what you did would cause the oil to stay on and trap water and soap residue. I think pure mineral oil, Coin Care, or BR are fine for Long Term on RB coins. Pat dry and use compressed air. Thanks to Thad, Charmy, AJ and all others

 

That may be the case, the reason for the surface luster-loss. But understand, under your theory as well as mine, the culprit is the same, the long-term exposure to the oil. Whether that can be corrected after a long-term bath by the application of acetone or xylene or whether the damage had already been done by that point as a result of the long-term bath is still really open to question. But I understand your theory, and I think it's plausible. I'd just caution, however, there may be a point, in terms of bath-time, where the damage to the surface luster becomes irreversible. So, a couple of weeks, probably harmless error. Months, a year? I don't know I'd want to do that. Just my paranoid opinion, now.

 

We actually agree for the most part Boss. It's a great coin.

I still believe the coin was cleaned long ago for the reasons I posted earlier and it gained a more natural look over time. Albums are great for this.
I also agree it will grade sometime in the future after it has time to fix itself.
Would be guessing if I said a few weeks, months or years.

I'm thinking 90% of all old coins have been cleaned and I'm responsible for a few thousand of those over the past 45 years in the hobby.
It gets me when folks say "oh no it was never cleaned".

 

I don't really follow your having it regraded?

 

it graded XF 40.

He removed the dirt and grime, and will let it retone.
Once it does, he'll get it graded again -- this is because he thinks it was undergraded, and should grade XF45

 

Hm..I do only hope the best, but at PCGS there value site (I know it is sometimes over sometimes under rarely neither) there value of XF45 is $800.00 and XF40 is $775.00, now is that price difference worth the risk of it coming back lower, or the same, or worst "cleaned" plus the fee for it would be over $25.00 ( i think) let me know what I am missing lol

 

From what I understand the OP does not care if the coin will grade or not.

 

Oh I misunderstood then I thought it was to get a higher grade, if its for appeal I completely understand