Featured Counterfeit Morgans: hands on with a high quality Chinese fake

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by DMPL_dingo, Jun 30, 2015.

  1. DMPL_dingo

    DMPL_dingo Well-Known Member

    After reading up on the fakes coming out of China, I decided to get my hands on one (it was that easy). Here’s a 1879-CC in “UNC” condition. See the images below. The luster was a bit “off” at the high points, particularly on the obverse, but the cartwheel was fully intact. At worst, it looked like a lightly cleaned genuine Morgan to the naked eye. With a bit of pocket wear, it could easily pass for an AU coin.

    At this point, I’d recommend only buying raw coins from the most reputable of dealers on eBay (I can list them off on one hand), or dealers whom you’ve done repeated business with & developed a rapport.

    Another option is to stick to slabbed coins on eBay, but apparently they are being counterfeited too….Be cautious of any PCGS/NGC slabbed coins that look off. Have genuine slabs to compare against. Take note of the font details, as well as the plastic raised corners of the PCGS holders in particular.

    The coin has been passed onto the appropriate authorities - please don’t ask questions about its acquisition or the subsequent process of reporting it. I was shocked at the quality of the fake and wished to share it here for informative purposes only.

    79CC - 2.jpg 79CC - 4.jpg 79CC - 5.jpg 79CC - 6.jpg 79CC - 9.jpg 79CC - 8.jpg 79CC - 7.jpg 79CC - 3.jpg

    Reverse:
    79CC - 2.jpg Obverse:

    79CC - 4.jpg 79CC - 7.jpg
    Reeds:
    79CC - 6.jpg
    Weight & Diameter check out: 79CC - 5.jpg 79CC - 9.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 30, 2015
    Blue79, MJPM, Stephan77 and 8 others like this.
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  3. peter1234

    peter1234 Member

    Excellent work and advice.
    I collect mainly UK coins.
    I'm aware of the 1763 Northumberland shilling,1822 half crown,1864 die 4 florin and 1847 gothic crown where more fakes are out there than originals
     
    ddollard58 and swamp yankee like this.
  4. OxJaw

    OxJaw Senior Member

    I enjoy these threads but I think it may be helpful to point out the signs that this is a fake. Only a couple things jump out at me and the luster wasn't one of the, maybe it's because I don't have it in hand. To me the upper lip looks funny and so does the raised rim by the denticles but then again it doesn't look much different than alot of other Morgan's I've seen. The MM looks like it might have something going on but that's not unusual either (think of all the different VAMs). Other than that what am I missing?
     
    Seattlite86 likes this.
  5. gxseries

    gxseries Coin Collector

    The real problem is once there's enough education going on, counterfeiters will soon use rock tumblers to artificially wear the coin down to remove the doubt of 'weird' luster. And it's already happening as we speak. I guess anything awkward that stands out gets fixed very quickly by counterfeiters. In the last five years, the easiest diagnostics were magnetic, crude, wrong weight, bad edging etc. Now look at today. Guess what's going to happen in the next ten years. I hate to think that far ahead.

    Again, please seek professional advice if you don't know what you getting. For every dollar you are planning to spend, please do not fund counterfeiters to allow them to make better counterfeits. Instead allow coin dealers to have a decent business to give you a better deal. I know everyone loves a bargain but the quickest way to learn is to become a seller to see the other perspective.
     
  6. littlehugger

    littlehugger Active Member

    Frankly, given whats available, I am surprised the fakes are even detectable anymore.
    Long ago, Hallmark brought out a new series of Christmas ornaments with a Star Trek theme. The original one was a small, light up Enterprise. My brother managed to get his hands on two, one of which I have.
    But, even then, Chinese fakes came out. Now its buyer beware. Frankly, I almost never buy "collectibles" anymore, because its too high a price to pay for something cardboard or plastic that my kids will likely get their hands on. And, if it truly has any value, you can be sure there will be easily obtained Chinese knock-offs destroying your investments value.
    I would be interested in a short summary of how this Morgan is fake also. Some fakes are easy. I was in the Philippines last year, and in preparation for shopping the outdoor markets, I bought a magnet. My wife wondered why. I walked up to the first booth displaying old "silver" pesos, and the coins practically jumped off the table onto the magnet, while the seller stared at the sky and pretended not to notice.
    I am really not ready to give up on collecting yet, but I bet my kids will not want to chance it.
     
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  7. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Not too long back, there was a thread about a raw 1889-CC in MS condition. I expressed my concern that it might be a counterfeit. I'm still hoping that I'm wrong, but the improvement of Chinese counterfeits is exactly why I expressed that concern. The OP of that thread said that he planned to submit it for grading & authentication, but we haven't heard the results yet.

    What is even scarier is that if silver continues to remain at a low price, the Chinese counterfeiters might even use 90% silver to make them. Based on a spot price of $15.75, a counterfeit dollar would only require $12.18 in silver. They could still make huge profits on common-date coins.

    Chris
     
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  8. Dancing Fire

    Dancing Fire Junior Member

    The denticles are no good.
     
    fish4uinmd likes this.
  9. derkerlegand

    derkerlegand Well-Known Member

    On what side, and location do you find the denticles especially telling? It does seem to me that the breast feathers aren't defined enough for a dollar in this condition, but would probably fool me....
     
    swamp yankee likes this.
  10. fish4uinmd

    fish4uinmd Well-Known Member

    How and where are they coming in?? any ideas on that?
     
  11. fish4uinmd

    fish4uinmd Well-Known Member

    I agree with Dancing...the denticles seem to be square...but I would never have caught it.
     
  12. Stephan77

    Stephan77 Well-Known Member

    The frightening part is that in no way is this the zenith for these Chinese counterfeiters. They are going to continue to get better at it.

    The TPG's need to step up, get some modern equipment, invest some capital, and use computer scanning diagnostic techniques instead of eyesight for authentication. Then the human eye can be used for grading purposes. It's not really an option anymore, this needs to be done and the sooner the better.

    There also needs to be a superior method of website verification, to prevent the successful use of counterfeit slabs. The current system that TPG's use, simply is not good enough in today's world.
     
    DMPL_dingo likes this.
  13. Stephan77

    Stephan77 Well-Known Member

    It really makes no sense for these counterfeiting vermin not to use silver.

    BTW - I hope a campaign and a mind set develops better in our country to buy American made products and products from friendly allied countries. China is not our friend in any way, shape or form, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon.
     
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  14. Stephan77

    Stephan77 Well-Known Member

    Also - I guess China considers this "business" however I take it personal when a foreign country is dedicated to systematically trying to destroy our hobby which has been my lifelong pleasure. We need to do whatever it takes to defeat these counterfeiters, before they defeat us.

    PCGS, NGC and any others, venture capitalists...you listening?
     
    Tater, Tivo, swamp yankee and 3 others like this.
  15. fish4uinmd

    fish4uinmd Well-Known Member

    Does anyone know of ANY graded/slabs that have been found to be fake?
     
  16. Paul M.

    Paul M. Well-Known Member

    Assuming you mean fake coins in authentic slabs, yes. The "privately made" micro-O VAMs were routinely slabbed years ago before the TPGs noticed they all shared a set of die markers. Other than that, I don't know.
     
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  17. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    It's not just a foreign country allowing this. Heck, we have people right here on these forums who buy "loophole" copies that are made right here in the good old US of A.

    Chris
     
    imrich likes this.
  18. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    I noticed that the eagle's breast on the reverse seems to be devoid of feathers. Is that a counterfeit diagnostic or are there genuine coins with weakness in that area?
     
    swamp yankee likes this.
  19. serafino

    serafino Well-Known Member


    Thanks for posting the link to that report on the fake coins coming out of China. It's depressing for us coin collectors, but the real problem with China extends way past this issue with fake coins.


    Do not start a political rant~ Rules!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2015
  20. fish4uinmd

    fish4uinmd Well-Known Member

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2015
    swamp yankee likes this.
  21. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    Dentils and eagle's breast look normal. Often when someone presents a coin and says it's fake, it becomes a Rorschach test. Personally I would purchase this coin as genuine even after seeing this thread.
     
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