counterfeit collection ?

I talked to Ken potter on the phone (Very nice guy!) when ordering my counterfeit detection book by John Divine (one I don't have..I managed to get "Strike it rich" with pocket change for only a few bucks more)

He said he knew some people that had collections (albums) of gold coins entirely counterfeit. This is how prevelent a problem it is. He told me a story of when someone brought in some morgans, the store person bought them. But he said to the owner, "What about the fakes?" he knew they were fakes from the off color.
But he was telling me how amazed he was by how scary some of the counterfeits are getting, its becoming a real problem.

TheLostdutchman thread (Matt's thread) on US counterfeit gold is especially worrisome. Some of the counterfeits there are scary good

 

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well that's not a true statement about the firearms either as long as you have a class 3 FFL you can own anything you want even a howitzer all you have to do is fill out the paperwork and pay for the license

You can own a machine gun with just some paperwork from your local sheriffs office think they call them purple cards.

 

I don't thiink so but let's find out the real answer to this counterfeit coin issue first. With what you're saying anyone can own a silencer for a gun and I am fairly certain that dog won't hunt. :kewl:

 

Fretboard, you did the right thing. Not vaguely claiming to have "done some research" you cited USC Title 18 Chapter 17 Secs 331-337 and USC 18 Chapter 25 Secs 471-594 which are available for the world via the Internet at sites like these:
Cornell University Law School
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/

The U.S. House of Representatives
http://uscode.house.gov/

FindLaw for Professionals
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode

The Library of Congress
http://www.loc.gov/law/help/guide/federal/uscode.php

I see absolutely no reason for people make up baloney analogies to guns or to invent phoney legalistics from too much "Law & Order" television. If you can find CoinTalk, you can find the law as it really is according to the actual government that truly makes and veritably enforces the law as it is.

Wrong, Big G. According to the law (cited above) possession of any such materials -- the coins, notes, dies, stones or plates ... any of it -- is CONTRABAND under the law and subject to seizure withouth a warrant.

The reason that you will not be prosecuted for simple possession is that it is assumed to be innocent possession. Someone passes you a fake coin or fake note, and darn, you just ate a loss. Now you are stuck with it. The fake can be taken from you, but you cannot be punished for having it -- as long as it is merely simple (innocent) possession.

To actually have a COLLECTION of such items would be prima facie evidence of INTENT.

I am not a lawyer.
But I do hold a bachelor of science degree (summa cum laude) in criminology. I do not offer opinions. I only cite facts. If you want an opinion, pay a lawyer.

---------------------

 

Thx for clearing that one up Mike and making sense of the bigger pic. :thumb:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License

that should put the gun thing to rest hell if you have enough money and are not a convicted felon i can get you a license to import high explosives. its a type 11 license

and yes as long as you are not a convicted felon or living in the Communist country of California you have the right to bear arms .

now back to the coin question.

I was going to start my collection with cents which according to

Is ok even if I intend to defraud people. which i don't .

 

It seems to me the words most given to interpretation in the law, are the ones about intent, is ebay intending to defraud by allowing the posting and selling of unmarked counterfeits?
Take away the counterfeit auctions and how much profit does ebay forego? How have they responded to requests to clean up counterfiet sales?

At what point does reasonable care to not break the law morph into carlessness about whatever is sold?

Then how about sellers who purchase tons of counterfeits and then list the same on ebay as being real or feigning no clue as to their origin? I think intent is pretty clear in that case.

I do not think that possession of counterfeits is evidence of intent to defraud, but I think that a set of stamps to stamp the word copy on the coin would keep the counterfeit collection from being confiscatable.

Plus it could be fun doing it, it would give some appreciation of those early die makers at the mint who hand stamped the stars and lettering into the dies.

 

"...subject to seizure without warrant..."

Now I have this image of ATF stormtroopers battering down my front door in the middle of the night, ransacking my house in order to seize my unmarked replicas. Gee, I gotta me a set of metal stamps real quick.. and get that "copy" mark in place!

 

this just about raps it up for me Ive made up my mind what im going to be doing...

Though the legalities regarding ownership of bogus coins aren't completely clear, there's nothing in the statutory or case law in the U.S. that indicates simple possession is illegal. Two areas of U.S. statuatory law deal with counterfeit coins. Title 18, Part I, Chapter 25 (Counterfeiting and Forgery) of the U.S. Code, Sections 485, 489, and 492 deal with counterfeits of U.S. and world coins. The Hobby Protection Act of 1973 (Title 15, Chapter 48, Sections 2101 through 2106 of the U.S. Code, plus 1988 amendments) deals with counterfeits of ancient coins.

Similarly, no court in the U.S. has ever ruled that possession of counterfeits of collectable coins is illegal. What's more, at least two circuit courts have ruled that possession of counterfeit coins without intent to defraud doesn't violate the U.S. counterfeit statues (United States v. Cardillo, 708 F.2d 29 [1983], and United States v. Ratner, 464 F.2d 169 [1972]), according to collector and lawyer Michael Benveniste.

The rest of this article can be found at

http://rg.ancients.info/guide/counterfeits.html

I recommend reading it.

 

Gonna have to go with Mike on this one. Was watching a special on History channel and they were interviewing FBI agents whose job it is to evaluate counterfeit currency and they made it perfectly clear it was illegal to have in your possession ANY counterfeit coins or currency period.
Now the question is are they going go come to your door and confiscate it? Probably not. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

Just out of curiosity, I called the Treasury Department today. I talked to an agent and asked the question, "Is it illegal for anyone to have any counterfeit coins or currency in their possession?", and the answer from the agent I was speaking to was, "Absolutely, yes it is illegal to possess any counterfeit coins or currency, and how much do you have?". I assurred him that I do have coins and currency, but to the best of my knowledge all of mine is legal. So you can take this post for what it is worth. Just had to satisfy my curiosity.

 

Wow.

 

I have a 1911 Liberty head Half that I think is a contemporary fake. Someone even drilled into the center at one point, to check for silver content I think. It's fairly well-worn so I think it circulated for a while.

 

1. I was invited by one of the participants.
2. I have two degrees not 47, one in criminal justice and another in criminology; and I assure you that counterfeiting is criminal.

I agree. As I said, you can be innocently in possession. The object may be seized, but you will not be punished. That said ...

(1) -- Whoever keeps in possession shall be fined or imprisoned.
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 25 - COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY
Sec. 472. Uttering counterfeit obligations or securities
Whoever, with intent to defraud, passes, utters, publishes, or
sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or with like
intent brings into the United States or keeps in possession or
conceals any falsely made, forged, counterfeited, or altered
obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined
under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both

(2) Whoever possesses or in any other manner uses shall be fined.
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 25 - COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY
Sec. 489. Making or possessing likeness of coins
Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from
any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away,
or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the
Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United
States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as
to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of
the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either
under the authority of the United States or under the authority of
any foreign government shall be fined under this title.

(3) All counterfeits shall be forfeited
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 25 - COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY
Sec. 492. Forfeiture of counterfeit paraphernalia
All counterfeits of any coins or obligations or other securities
of the United States or of any foreign government, or any articles,
devices, and other things made, possessed, or used in violation of
this chapter or of sections 331-333, 335, 336, 642 or 1720, of this
title, or any material or apparatus used or fitted or intended to
be used, in the making of such counterfeits, articles, devices or
things, found in the possession of any person without authority
from the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer, shall
be forfeited to the United States.
Whoever, having the custody or control of any such counterfeits,
material, apparatus, articles, devices, or other things, fails or
refuses to surrender possession thereof upon request by any
authorized agent of the Treasury Department, or other proper
officer, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more
than one year, or both.

I point out that LACK OF ENFORCEMENT IS NOT ENDORSEMENT. You can get away with speeding, but that does not make speeding legal. As I have said, if there is a fire downtown and all the cops are there directing traffic, the lack of patrols at the Mall is not an open invitation to rob the jewelry store. ... not even if other people are doing it.

 

All of those are with the intent to sell or distribute them as real coins ..

I looked up the legal definition of the word counterfeit and I think the problem might be found there a counterfeit is "a copy made with the intent to deceive"

So i will only be buying counterfeits but when I deiced to keep them and don't try to defraud anyone with them they will become replicas which are perfectly legal to own .

 

About 15 years ago, I withdrew $300 (in $20's) from our company's credit union ATM at lunchtime. When I returned to the office, I paid off a $60 football bet I lost to one of my coworkers.

As I paid the money, I noticed one of the bills looked odd. Upon closer inspection, it was clear the bill was counterfeit...and not a very good one at that. It looked like a photocopy of a $20 bill.

I immediately returned to the bank to get my money back. Not only did I NOT get my money back :crying:, the manager refused to give me back the counterfeit note.

She explained that there was no way to prove the bill came from their ATM and she was required by law to confiscate the counterfeit bill.

 

I would argue, if they refused to give back the 20, or replace it, i would threaten to switch banks.

 

Blue Oxen, do as I did and just call the Treasury Department and see if they agree with you on that. I can guarantee you that they will not see it the way you do. They are very emphatic, "to have ANY counterfeit coins or currency IN YOU POSSESION IS ILLEGAL. End of conversation.