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Message:: [QUOTE="Juan Blanco, post: 1575555, member: 41665"]Qualifying the Червонец as an imitation rather than "counterfeit" is more accurate. The 'Red Gold' was purer than the Russian standard, not to defraud nor debase any other nation's coin. For want of specie, the ducat was made for international trade rather than as local currency. Throughout most of the history, foreign merchants could not legally export Gold Roubles! The English likewise manufactured Dollars as a "money of account." Overstruck Peso/Piastre coins (Dollars) aside, a prohibition on exporting 'English coins' from GB encouraged the minting of English Piastres. It makes perfect sense the English Mint would produce "Spanish Dollars" (specie) for thriving trade between the West Indies and the Spanish Main – this wasn't rocket sceince. I have no idea when this began nor how many such "Spanish Dollars" were issued by British minters, but I have seen numerous references to the English production of Dollars. Though a surreptitious project, the production of British Spanish Dollars is also NOT "counterfeit" in the way we imagine; it was a matter of necessity. I will grant that subtle debasement may have been a nefarious goal later on, but that doesn't appear to have been the primary intent. A Boston-born merchant who served as US consul to the West Indies, Sidney Mason (1799-1871) recalled trans-shipping such coins as far back as 1809, I'll presume it started much earlier. This excerpt is not in copyright and warrants examination: The American Historical Record, and Repertory of Notes and Queries ..., ed. Benson John Lossing; Vol. 1 (1872) p.555 >>Dollar. [Vol. I. No. 10. pp. 464-5.J— Spanish Dollars were coined in England, as well as America. Twenty-five years ago or more (circa 1850) I used to see Carolus Dollars, in large quantities, at Messrs. Beebe and Cos. the then leading specie House in Wall Street, New York, and, on examining a certain lot of them, remarked I did not believe they were coined in Spain or America. The clerk, Mr. Johnson, (who possessed a very accurate knowledge of specie and subsequently went to California) said they were coined in England for the India or China trade and were guaranteed to be equal to Spanish Dollars in value by the Bank of England ; also, that there was a private mark on them by which they could always be recognized at the Mint in England. It was well known amongst old shipping merchants (1) that Carolus or Pillar’d Dollars were invaluable in the China trade, and Mexican Dollars, at a later period, stood next in the estimation of Chinese merchants. For nearly a century Spanish Dollars and rice were almost the only media of exchange for teas, silks, and other oriental articles. The Spanish Dollar and Doubloon were familiarly known at the ports of every continent and everywhere formed the bulk of the material for minting. It is from the former that the unit of our national coinage is derived. The Spanish American coinage began to decline in 1810, and underwent a transition from royal to republican about 1822. Mr. John Gelston, of this city, who is familiar with the subject, says the English Dollars were all of the Carolus type and had the letters M. O. for Mexico, stamped on them and that they would bring 30 per cent, advance in China over other dollars. Hence the necessity of restamping other dollars in England in order to meet the wants of the China trade. The difference in premium soon paid for expensive machinery and dies which must have cost a great deal of money. You will notice the English precaution not to counterfeit Spanish coins coined in Spain, but rather those of Mexico, where less notice would be taken of it. Mr. Gelston told me today that there were four or five mints in Mexico, where Spanish Dollars were coined and that each had its marks while there were no marks on the Dollars coined in Spain. (1) The late Mr. Sidney Mason of New York, told me that, at the early age of ten years {circa 1809} he was sent by Boston merchants in charge of three sled loads (drawn by oxen) of silver Dollars from Boston, Mass. in the latter part of April, to be shipped on board a vessel, belonging to Messrs. Brown and Co., in Providence, R. I. bound thence to Canton, and, that the snow lasted just long enough for him to accomplish it, or in other words, three days from the time of its fail.<<[/QUOTE]

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