Counterfeit / Altered Coin Of The Day/Week

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Thanks for the words of wisdom Doug.

 

Thanks for this thread. As a new collector I don't know much about spotting counterfeits and I've learned a lot.

I did have an interesting coin come into my shop yesterday though. an 1899 Morgan that was 2.1g underweight and didn't make that silver ting when "accidentally" dropped. Lady wanted $22 so I didn't take the chance.

 

Qualifying the Червонец as an imitation rather than "counterfeit" is more accurate. The 'Red Gold' was purer than the Russian standard, not to defraud nor debase any other nation's coin. For want of specie, the ducat was made for international trade rather than as local currency. Throughout most of the history, foreign merchants could not legally export Gold Roubles!

The English likewise manufactured Dollars as a "money of account." Overstruck Peso/Piastre coins (Dollars) aside, a prohibition on exporting 'English coins' from GB encouraged the minting of English Piastres. It makes perfect sense the English Mint would produce "Spanish Dollars" (specie) for thriving trade between the West Indies and the Spanish Main – this wasn't rocket sceince.

I have no idea when this began nor how many such "Spanish Dollars" were issued by British minters, but I have seen numerous references to the English production of Dollars. Though a surreptitious project, the production of British Spanish Dollars is also NOT "counterfeit" in the way we imagine; it was a matter of necessity. I will grant that subtle debasement may have been a nefarious goal later on, but that doesn't appear to have been the primary intent. A Boston-born merchant who served as US consul to the West Indies, Sidney Mason (1799-1871) recalled trans-shipping such coins as far back as 1809, I'll presume it started much earlier.

This excerpt is not in copyright and warrants examination: The American Historical Record, and Repertory of Notes and Queries ..., ed. Benson John Lossing; Vol. 1 (1872) p.555

>>Dollar. [Vol. I. No. 10. pp. 464-5.J— Spanish Dollars were coined in England, as well as America. Twenty-five years ago or more (circa 1850) I used to see Carolus Dollars, in large quantities, at Messrs. Beebe and Cos. the then leading specie House in Wall Street, New York, and, on examining a certain lot of them, remarked I did not believe they were coined in Spain or America. The clerk, Mr. Johnson, (who possessed a very accurate knowledge of specie and subsequently went to California) said they were coined in England for the India or China trade and were guaranteed to be equal to Spanish Dollars in value by the Bank of England ; also, that there was a private mark on them by which they could always be recognized at the Mint in England.

It was well known amongst old shipping merchants (1) that Carolus or Pillar’d Dollars were invaluable in the China trade, and Mexican Dollars, at a later period, stood next in the estimation of Chinese merchants. For nearly a century Spanish Dollars and rice were almost the only media of exchange for teas, silks, and other oriental articles.

The Spanish Dollar and Doubloon were familiarly known at the ports of every continent and everywhere formed the bulk of the material for minting. It is from the former that the unit of our national coinage is derived. The Spanish American coinage began to decline in 1810, and underwent a transition from royal to republican about 1822.

Mr. John Gelston, of this city, who is familiar with the subject, says the English Dollars were all of the Carolus type and had the letters M. O. for Mexico, stamped on them and that they would bring 30 per cent, advance in China over other dollars. Hence the necessity of restamping other dollars in England in order to meet the wants of the China trade. The difference in premium soon paid for expensive machinery and dies which must have cost a great deal of money.

You will notice the English precaution not to counterfeit Spanish coins coined in Spain, but rather those of Mexico, where less notice would be taken of it.

Mr. Gelston told me today that there were four or five mints in Mexico, where Spanish Dollars were coined and that each had its marks while there were no marks on the Dollars coined in Spain.

(1) The late Mr. Sidney Mason of New York, told me that, at the early age of ten years {circa 1809} he was sent by Boston merchants in charge of three sled loads (drawn by oxen) of silver Dollars from Boston, Mass. in the latter part of April, to be shipped on board a vessel, belonging to Messrs. Brown and Co., in Providence, R. I. bound thence to Canton, and, that the snow lasted just long enough for him to accomplish it, or in other words, three days from the time of its fail.<<

 

You're mistaken. Typically gold coins were used only to trade with foreigners. The notion that soldiers were paid in Gold is so absurd it's laughable. Really?!

Soldiers were paid in Assignats, a horribly debased paper currency, and a pittance. Notoriously, Russians would sometimes maim their sons/themselves to avoid conscription - if they'd been paid in Gold do you honestly suppose they'd have done that? They were serfs (slaves) - with Gold, they might have purchased their freedom or afforded to escape bondage.

The Russian ducat coined to the Holland standard was apparently by mutual agreement of both governments (or so the Russians said.) This wasn't counterfeiting - it was by permission (see below.)

For the ruling elite and minuscule merchant class, it's true that chernovetsii trickled back into the local money mkts, sold at very high premium to assignats. As such, we can imagine that these ducats "circulated rarely" within the Russian Empire (as did SPANISH/US Dollars more commonly, btw) But that wasn't the primary intent behind their minting, nor was counterfeiting (fraud.)

On the Soldier's Pay in Paper or (very rarely) Silver, see Robert Sears, An Illustrated Description of the Russian Empire (1855) p.505

For whom the ducat was minted, see Dr. Edward D. Clarke's 1822 memoir:

Why Russia minted Dutch ducats, see Recollections of Siberia, in ... 1840 and 1841 ; Charles Herbert Cottrell (1842) p.227

Gold ducats (the term connotes 'major coin') were manufactured to cover certain imperial debts and as foreign-trade currency. Otherwise, Gold coins were common in upper-class salons (gambling) but totally unseen at the peasants' market-place. Even Silver Roubles were rare.

 

Even though this thread is technically in the US coin section, I see some other foreign copies posted; so here are a couple of mine.

Weimar Republic 5 Mark 1925-A Rhineland Millennium



“EINIGKEIT UND RECHT UND FREIHEIT” edge lettering missing / strange metal.

 

Weimar Republic 5 Mark 1930-G Graf Zeppelin



I posted this reverse on another thread to see if someone would catch it. The real 1930-G has a mintage of only 24,000. Hopefully these images will help someone.

 

No, really. Mere citation of some journal is entirely insufficient to defend a patently absurd proposition. In fact, conscripts & "enlisted" alike were paid almost nothing, certainly nothing in Gold Coin. Mercenaries and satraps' tribute notwithstanding, Russian soldiers basically starved: they were slav(e)s after all. The historical record is perfectly clear on this pretty simple fact.

Soldiers were paid a pittance in in paper Roubles (assignats). See 'The Turkish Campiagn of 1829' - translation from Der Orient und Europa. Erinnerungen von Land und Meer. Von Eduard, Freiherrn von Callot.

During the 1830s Russians who had means paid many ounces in Gold bribes to escape military service. See Domestic Scenes in Russia: In a Series of Letters Describing a Year's Residence in that Country; Richard Lister Venables (1839) p.187-9

If peasants frequently mutiliated themselves to avoid the army, those conscripted were certainly not 'paid Gold.' See The British and Foreign Review: Or, European Quarterly Journal, Vol. 7 (1838) p.433

 

Trade Dollar Fakes

Well, I have purchased two trade dollars and have been told by C.T. Members that both are fakes.

 

Are they silver?

 

The only sources that matter here are primary sources, not uncorroborated opinion. Or pretense.

See An account of Russia, as it was in the Year 1710 by Charles Whitworth (1758) for a primary description of the Russian ducat, appearing with Dutch shipbuilders for Peter's fleet:

See a French account from the late 1700s, Secret memoirs of the court of Petersburg [by C.F.P. Masson]. (1801)

William Tooke, an English clergman long resident in St Peterburg, explained ducat values of different Tsars, and by 1802, a French-Russian grammar already indicated what the informed and well-educated merchants certainly knew: "ЧервонецЪ ducat est un nom générique. Le ducat russe, pièce d'or valant deux roubles et demi, est très-rare. Le demi-impérial l'est beaucoup moins." These coins were not common in everyman's commerce - and they certainly weren't paid to common soldiers.

For merchants and the rich, 'Ducat' was a term like 'Dollar' (varying values, same concept) and as the United States Dollar was not a 'counterfeit' to the Mexican Dollar nor any other that circulated (and there were many.) As weights & fineness changed, likewise, the ducat to whatever standard was neither fraud nor counterfeit: more like 'same-same but different.'

For purchasing-power, contemporaries understood a 'ducat' between 2 Trade-Dollars and the $3. gold piece. The Director of The US Mint, Jakob Eckfeldt (1842) rated the Russian Ducat of Paul I (1798) at USD$ 2.75 in Gold.
View attachment 216833

I'll defer to a contemporary's opinon, Charles Herbert Cottrell, in 1842: the Russians had a long-standing Dutch agreement to coin full weight ducats, cheaply. But in St. Petersburg & Moscow, the Rouble money-market (in Silver OR Paper) rated a Gold ducat higher or lower, on course. NOT FIXED RATE!

 

Hi ! John, Don't know for sure. They look like silver coins and don't magnetize.

 

They look real to me. Do they weigh?

 

re: Fake Trade dollars
Compare the "Liberty" (among other details) ; see the 2nd link for more insight.
http://www.apmex.com/Product/66925/default.aspx?utm_origin=pla&kwd=&utm_origin2=product-listing-ad&gclid=CL-VrJnw3bMCFQSg4AoduisA_w
http://coinauctionshelp.com/identify_fake_counterfeit_tradedollars_silverdollars.html

 

Thanks!

 

Here is a Barber half that came in with a collection today.

A poor example of IMO an odd date to counterfiet.

1899-O - looks like a circulated VF-XF example - I guess mid priced by collecting standards cost wise .Not sure if this was produced to fool a collector or just for general commerce.

Besides the dead give away of being nearly a gram off in weight the coin has a weakly struck ,grainy appearance. It is not silver but does have a near enough look to fool most.

 

Those 9's look like some sort of deranged pacman character. They should be rounder, no?