Contemporary Counterfeits

Another 1833 Davignon 1-A
Sniped at 23 bucks on Ebay so had to have it

 

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Was watching this one on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Defect...J2zj7MSqYhOVXksDerVsI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

I always find it extra interesting when they use the wrong monarch. In this case Charles IV would not have been on a genuine coin past 1808.

 

Thought I'd share this. Its a George III contemporary shilling Forgery.

Probably one of the better condition ones you'll see. Most are recovered in bad condition by detectorists. This ones never been in the ground. Its made of brass and would have been silver washed.
There's still some wash visible around the lettering/legends. Its rumoured the dies for this shilling where stolen from the Royal mint.

Apparently during George III reign a very high percentage of the cash in peoples pockets was counterfeit.

 

Pieces like this one are transfer die copies, which is why they mostly match details on original dies. Someone back then with the means to steal legitimate dies from the Royal Mint and get away with it probably would not need to counterfeit shillings

 

Thanks for that. The stolen dies was a theory that I picked up from a website on Georgian forgery's. Rumours only.

 

That is true. In the late 1780's (right before the Conder tokens began) it was estimated that as much as 90% of the coins in circulation were counterfeit.

You also had the problem that they just didn't issue many coins during George III's reign. (The government was pretty much broke after fighting wars with France, then France and the United States.) I believe the only silver issues during his reign were six pences and shillings in 1787 and the again starting in 1816. The ony copper coinage were farthings and half pence 1770 - 1775. Then the contact coinage with Boulton in 1797 and 1799 - 1807.

 

You may find this interesting. Its not academic but written by a collector of Georgian forged currency /detectorist who frequently found George III counterfeit currency.

http://www.predecimal.com/forged/georgeiii.htm

 

Please HELP!

A coin dealer said my coin was a fake. He said he would not tell me the reason because it could get back to the counterfeiter and they would "fix" the dies. Any clues I can look for? Sorry the photos are not better and magnified more.

Thanks

 

Facetiousness level 9000 bro :/

 

Yes the 1799 dollar is a fake and it is a well known and fairly older one (probably from around thirty years ago or more. The key pick up point is the hole in the R of LIBERTY. The dealer is right though, often once diagnostics on fakes get published openly we do see evidence that the counterfeiters work on their dies to remove the identified markers. This one is old enough though that the dies are probably long gone.

 

I don't think of a 1799 coin counterfeited in the 1970s or 80s to be a contemporary counterfeit.

That fake was created for the numismatic Marketplace.

A contemporary counterfeit was intended to circulate in Commerce alongside legitimate coins. Although a contemporary counterfeit was usually an imitation of an older or uncommon coin. " haven't seen one of those in a while" "me gran been digging under the mattress"

 

True that 1799 is not a contemporary counterfeit, it was made to deceive collectors.

 

Not sure as Bob is working on this one by himself. In this series there are not a lot of different alloys and he has since used his own private testing company for the few he needs to analyze. Due to the number of varieties being over 1,000 perhaps only a snapshot will be done or perhaps the entire population will be put into CDs withe the book only picturing a percentage? Still in the works ...

John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States

 

As some of you guys know we used two definitions in the Gurney book: contemporary circulating counterfeits and modern forgeries. I agree to the new student contemporary is a poor choice of word but we are STUCK with it ...

JPL

 

Totally agree JPL there's numerous definitions of "contemporary" in most online dictionaries.

 

In terms of the Escudos (Spanish) Coronado (spelling?) does a good basic treatment on these ... in some respect they are ALL scarce but more importantly they are not really desired in a brass or bronze alloy. Collectors of these mid-19thC Spanish Escudo coins know their desirability VERY WELL (i.e., virtually impossible for JPL to cherry-pick a European dealer on these) and the high desirability issues are normally for the almost full weight gold wash over platinum alloy issues which are ~ 90% the weight of the regal gold issues or weights listed in KM. I have come across some gold issues which were debased with copper so they are gold and copper. These range say ~75% the weight of a regal. Very tough and rare. This previously pictured issue is probably a brass or bronze alloy which the weight ~ 50% of regal gold weight. I have a few of these but avoid them after the 1-2 platinum or several debased gold issues in my collection as how many of these do you really need? Budget reasons ... to move onward and upward <BG>.

 

In terms of the Newman piece there is some form of plate peeling off the coin as you can see different discolorations which IMO is silver and copper areas. Gurney and myself have concluded that in and around 1840 is the starting point for electrodeposition so this 1821 issue is an enigma but we do conclude there may be several Portrait 8Reales which have silver electrodeposition. I am tempted to break it out of the slab and XRF analyze the surface and maybe even do SEM microgrpahs (i.e., magnification shots) of the surface. But I see no point. It's not going to tell me anything new. Its a very DIFFERENT looking piece. Silver electrodeposition simply is a technology to put silver on a copper surface more easily than Sheffield plating. There are many advantages if one does research this technology. I supply a whole chapter in my upcoming book.
In terms of NGC having different opinions I can see where the later lower silver content Chinese CLASS II issues will always be somewhat controversial. In some ways we put out this information and perhaps future collectors can supply more data - although I know Gurney is convinced and has volumes of information to support this class of counterfeit. Who can argue about a Class I type? I doubt however that any reservations NGC does have that they will go toe to toe with Gurney. Just saying ... IMO.
In my new book I also include some basic information on Chinese counterfeits. I believe after reading my book which has over 1,000 coins fully XRF'd of many different types (U.S. Colonial & Foreign types mostly of a European nature from 1500-1850) many questions will be answered and less confusing posts will be posted as seen here ... IMO.

John Lorenzo
United States

 

Picked up this interesting specimen. Silver washed copper or bronze, appears to be made from a transfer die as the details are correct but the eagle is much shallower in profile. Weighs 14.56 grams, which is a bit low but close enough that it would not feel too light in hand. The edge lettering is not very well executed, but it's cool that they took the extra step to make it more convincing. Historically, this year was the return of a stable currency after a period of out of control inflation and rampant counterfeiting following WWI, so it's somewhat ironic in that sense

This one would have been fairly convincing before the silver wash began to wear off.

 

Purchased this cool little piece from a member on another forum. I believe they posted it in the US coin category here as well not too long ago.

Appears to be struck from a hand made die that is somewhat crude, but not too bad. Was originally gold gilded and has some remaining traces of the gild. I find these to be much more interesting than transfer die copies. There is a test punch to the right of the bust/date, so this one was caught and luckily not destroyed.

@jwitten have you seen many of these in your quarter eagle collecting days?

 

Interesting! I have not really seen any of those, but I do not really look for fakes either, lol.